Jhana

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Jhana

Post by Coëmgenu »

Pulsar wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:03 pmA friend wrote on DW, referring to DN 15,
the Sarvastivadin version is difficult because it implies that there are no formless existences because, when you take away form, mind and name plummet in that version.
But why would it surprise anyone? This is exactly what happens in 4th jhana? Samsaric consciousness or underlying tendency is abolished. Curiously in the agama version of the sutta on Reed simile, there are three reeds not two. A glitch in the memory of a compiler? The Agama version makes more sense.
How nice to be “friended.” One point though: the sheaves of wheat parallel is in SĀ 288 and it is to the reed simile in the Naḷakalāpīsutta at SN 12.67.
Then, the monks sang this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and rots.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.

(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

My dear best friend Coëmgenu: You wrote
How nice to be “friended.” One point though: the sheaves of wheat parallel is in SĀ 288 and it is to the reed simile in the Naḷakalāpīsutta at SN 12.67.
That was a life saver, I made the corrections. I had too many thoughts on my mind. I was studying the two versions of DN 15, around the same time. The agama version of DN 15 was a lot clearer than the Pali version. It is a blessing to be around friends like you. All the things that were muddled get gradually unmuddled.
With love :candle:
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:03 pm In worldly phenomena, consciousness is the chief, consciousness is the principal, consciousness is the forerunner.
In transcendental phenomena, however, understanding is the chief, understanding is the principal, understanding is the forerunner.
if you mean wisdom and consciousness then,
https://suttacentral.net/mn43/en/sujato wrote:“Wisdom and consciousness—“Yā cāvuso, paññā yañca viññāṇaṃ—
these things are mixed, not separate.ime dhammā saṃsaṭṭhā, no visaṃsaṭṭhā.
And you can never completely dissect them so as to describe the difference between them.Na ca labbhā imesaṃ dhammānaṃ vinibbhujitvā vinibbhujitvā nānākaraṇaṃ paññāpetuṃ.
For you understand what you cognize, and you cognize what you understand.Yaṃ hāvuso, pajānāti taṃ vijānāti, yaṃ vijānāti taṃ pajānāti.
That’s why these things are mixed, not separate.Tasmā ime dhammā saṃsaṭṭhā, no visaṃsaṭṭhā.
And you can never completely dissect them so as to describe the difference between them.”Na ca labbhā imesaṃ dhammānaṃ vinibbhujitvā vinibbhujitvā nānākaraṇaṃ paññāpetun”ti.
they can't be dissected but there is difference,
https://suttacentral.net/mn43/en/sujato wrote:“Wisdom and consciousness—“Yā cāvuso, paññā yañca viññāṇaṃ—
what is the difference between these things that are mixed, not separate?”imesaṃ dhammānaṃ saṃsaṭṭhānaṃ no visaṃsaṭṭhānaṃ kiṃ nānākaraṇan”ti?
“Yā cāvuso, paññā yañca viññāṇaṃ—“The difference between these things is that wisdom should be developed, while consciousness should be completely understood.”imesaṃ dhammānaṃ saṃsaṭṭhānaṃ no visaṃsaṭṭhānaṃ paññā bhāvetabbā, viññāṇaṃ pariññeyyaṃ.Idaṃ nesaṃ nānākaraṇan”ti.
Arhant is sentient being albeit the best one in existence. Arhant doesn't have transcendental consciousness. Read above, consciousness is to be understood not transcended.
Pulsar wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:03 pm The Arahant has done away with worldly consciousness, s/he resides in the Right knowledge and is thus Rightly liberated, MN 117, operates on the principle of immeasurable.
How can we measure that consciousness? The consciousness of Arahant has disappeared from our sight.  Trying to do so brings to mind the blind man describing the elephant.
It is a bit silly.
So go back to drawing board. And if you not like MN 43, there is SN equivalent.
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Dearest Coëmgenu: I appreciate your ability to point out incongruities in suttas using parallels,
such as you did with SĀ 288 and Naḷakalāpīsutta at SN 12.67. It enables me to revisit DO with a more fitting understanding. Come to think of it DN 15 is packed with some incongruities that are not found in some agama versions.
Just a quick query...are you aware of any incongruity in SN 14.9 which is titled "Diversity of contacts".
BB in his footnotes to this sutta writes under FN 230 "the discrete sequence beginning with contact perception leads to some strange incongruities, which becomes even more bizarre....."
I find something seriously curious embedded in this footnote...
Sometimes it is the occasional footnote that reveals the truth of the text of a sutta, than the text of the sutta itself. Explorations into the suttas are fascinating. In a different footnote to SN 22.81 BB writes
"The two versions differ only with respect to two verb forms, they are sometimes confounded in the various recensions,
I can just imagine why there is horrendous confusion regarding what ought to be straightforward.
Perhaps this is why a famous scholar wrote, without meditation, Dhamma cannot be deciphered.
Anyways I was wondering whether you can help me out here. Can you pl. check it out when you have the time?
Are you aware of an agama parallel to SN 14.9? Will it shed some light?
With love and great appreciation of your contributions to the Forum.
:heart:
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Jhana

Post by Coëmgenu »

I guess I would need to know more about what Venerable Bodhi meant when he said "leads to some strange incongruities." What was the specific incongruity Ven Bodhi pointed out? I agree that "contact" is placed irregularly, but what else does he point out?

Pali version
  • 1. elements dhātu
    2. perceptions saññā
    3. intentions saṅkappa
    4. contacts phassa
    5. feelings vedanā
    6. desires chanda
    7. passions pariḷāha
    8. searches pariyesanā
    9. gains lābha
Agama Sutra No. 454
  • 1. elements 界
    2. contact 觸
    3. feelings 受
    4. perceptions 想 (saññā)
    5. intention 欲 (cetanā/saṅkappa)
    6. attention 覺 (manasikāra)
    7. fevers/passions 熱
    8. searches 求
This is a very old translation. One of the terms used, 覺, normally means "bodhi," but has a wide range of meanings before the "normative era" of Chinese translation of the Dharma. It can mean essentially anything to do with cognition when it is used in this sense and is difficult to pin down what it means. "Manasikara" is a guess because it seems to list some features associated with nāma(rūpa) in the Pali tradition. If it is not manasikara, then 覺 stands for vijñāna here, but that reading introduces far more problems than it solves.

Agama Sutra No. 455
  • 1. elements 界
    2. contact 觸
    3. perceptions 想
    4. intention 欲
    5. attention 覺
    6. fevers/passions 熱
    7. searches 求
This list is "missing" vedanā/受. None of the parallels have gains/lābha, which is a Pali-specific term only appearing in that one recension.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Then, the monks sang this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and rots.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.

(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:54 pm

Agama Sutra No. 454
  • 1. elements 界
    2. contact 觸
    3. feelings 受
    4. perceptions 想 (saññā)
    5. intention 欲 (cetanā/saṅkappa)
    6. attention 覺 (manasikāra)
    7. fevers/passions 熱
    8. searches 求
This reads better, although it looks like the suttas are trying to follow nama but in nama contact comes after vedana, sanna and intentions.
"Because of attachment to doctrines one approaches and refutes,
For those unattached, how can they dispute?
Not because self or no-self are said to be true,
He has only shaken off all harmful views."


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Coëmgenu
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Re: Jhana

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:11 pmThis reads better, although it looks like the suttas are trying to follow nama but in nama contact comes after vedana, sanna and intentions.
Contact is differently-placed in the Sarvāstivādin version, but both the Pāli and Chinese are actually arguably placing contact irregularly here, not just the Pāli. Consider, IMO the placement is only irregular if we conceive of DO as in a particular shape that necessarily “starts with” ignorance and “ends with” age-and-death, that nāmarūpa “always precedes” contact and that contact will never in turn be a condition for nāmarūpa or any other link that allegedly “precedes” it. I call this “pinball DO,” because it presumes that the links of DO are like pinballs that require a transfer of motion from another pinball to get them “moving.”
Then, the monks sang this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and rots.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.

(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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DooDoot
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Re: Jhana

Post by DooDoot »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:54 pm Pali version
  • 1. elements dhātu
    2. perceptions saññā
    3. intentions saṅkappa
    4. contacts phassa
    5. feelings vedanā
    6. desires chanda
    7. passions pariḷāha
    8. searches pariyesanā
    9. gains lābha
SN 14.9
Obviously the above is misunderstood, as demonstrated in the recent failed Nagarjuna thread. I posted the above (or similar from SN 14.12) in the failed Nagarjuna thread but it was ignored.

Allow me to repeat:

1. ignorance link = asava = elements
2. sankhara link = 3 x MN 44 sankhara = includes perception (citta sankhara)
3. namarupa = includes intention
4. contact = contact
5. feeling = feeling
6. desire = craving
7. passions = delight = attachment
8. searches = becoming
9. gains = lābha = jati = SN 12.2 āyatanānaṃ paṭilābho = acquisition of sense objects
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:54 pmAgama Sutra No. 454
  • 1. elements 界
    2. contact 觸
    3. feelings 受
    4. perceptions 想 (saññā)
    5. intention 欲 (cetanā/saṅkappa)
    6. attention 覺 (manasikāra)
    7. fevers/passions 熱
    8. searches 求
The above is also OK but it is a simpler briefer version starting at contact, similar to in DN 22.

Because one follows the idol Nagarjuna and because one has no meditation insight, one does not comprehend the internal perceptions arising before contact and distinguishes them from the perceptions arising after contact.

In the full version of D.O. perception arises 3 times, at sankkhara, at nama-rupa and at/with feeling.

:roll:
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:22 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:11 pmThis reads better, although it looks like the suttas are trying to follow nama but in nama contact comes after vedana, sanna and intentions.
Contact is differently-placed in the Sarvāstivādin version, but both the Pāli and Chinese are actually arguably placing contact irregularly here, not just the Pāli. Consider, IMO the placement is only irregular if we conceive of DO as in a particular shape that necessarily “starts with” ignorance and “ends with” age-and-death, that nāmarūpa “always precedes” contact and that contact will never in turn be a condition for nāmarūpa or any other link that allegedly “precedes” it. I call this “pinball DO,” because it presumes that the links of DO are like pinballs that require a transfer of motion from another pinball to get them “moving.”
Contact is however within nāmarūpa. I'm beginning to suspect that the contact of nāmarūpa refers to the 2 kinds of contact outlined in DN 15, whilst the contact that follows the saḷāyatana depends upon designation & resistant contact, itself being the outcome of attention as per MN 28:
Ajjhattikañceva, āvuso, cakkhuṃ aparibhinnaṃ hoti bāhirā ca rūpā āpāthaṃ āgacchanti, no ca tajjo samannāhāro hoti, neva tāva tajjassa viññāṇabhāgassa pātubhāvo hoti.

“If, friends, internally the eye is intact but no external forms come into its range, and there is no corresponding [conscious] engagement, then there is no manifestation of the corresponding section of consciousness.

Yato ca kho, āvuso, ajjhattikañceva cakkhuṃ aparibhinnaṃ hoti, bāhirā ca rūpā āpāthaṃ āgacchanti, tajjo ca samannāhāro hoti. Evaṃ tajjassa viññāṇabhāgassa pātubhāvo hoti.

If internally the eye is intact and external forms come into its range, but there is no corresponding [conscious] engagement, then there is no manifestation of the corresponding section of consciousness.
"Samannāhāra, (saṃ+anu+āhāra) concentration, bringing together M. I, 190 sq.; DA. I, 123; Miln. 189. (Page 683)"

A form coming into range of vision is not enough for contact, and so visual awareness. There has to be intention & attention towards it.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Because of attachment to doctrines one approaches and refutes,
For those unattached, how can they dispute?
Not because self or no-self are said to be true,
He has only shaken off all harmful views."


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Coëmgenu
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Re: Jhana

Post by Coëmgenu »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:14 pmObviously the above is misunderstood, as demonstrated in the recent failed Nagarjuna thread.
Please stop introducing silly non-sequiturs into actual meaningful discussion.
Then, the monks sang this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and rots.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.

(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: Jhana

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:16 pm Contact is however within nāmarūpa. I'm beginning to suspect that the contact of nāmarūpa refers to the 2 kinds of contact outlined in DN 15,
The above suspicions appear incorrect because ignorance & sankhara are not included in the dodgy DN 15.

It appears contact is within nāmarūpa because it is an internal contact with ignorance & sankhara.

:)
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:20 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:16 pm Contact is however within nāmarūpa. I'm beginning to suspect that the contact of nāmarūpa refers to the 2 kinds of contact outlined in DN 15,
The above suspicions appear incorrect because ignorance & sankhara are not included in the dodgy DN 15.

It appears contact is within nāmarūpa because it is an internal contact with ignorance & sankhara.

:)
They don't have to be. Classical Buddhist hermeneutics rightly state that when one part of dependent origination is taught the other parts are implied.
"Because of attachment to doctrines one approaches and refutes,
For those unattached, how can they dispute?
Not because self or no-self are said to be true,
He has only shaken off all harmful views."


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Re: Jhana

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:22 pm They don't have to be. Classical Buddhist hermeneutics rightly state that when one part of dependent origination is taught the other parts are implied.
The above may be true but DN 15 cannot be relied on to explain why contact is within nama-rupa because DN 15 only has 9 links.

The full version is as follows:

For example, the sankhara thought arises: "I feel like chocolate". This is an internal contact at nama-rupa.

Then nama-rupa, under the influence of ignorance (instead of eradicating that unwholesome thought), makes the intentional decision: "Yes, lets find chocolate".

Then contact is made externally with chocolate when searching for chocolate.

Thus there are two contacts in a cycle: internal contact of a sankhara at nama-rupa and external contact with an external object.
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Jhana

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DooDoot wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:26 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:22 pm They don't have to be. Classical Buddhist hermeneutics rightly state that when one part of dependent origination is taught the other parts are implied.
The above may be true but DN 15 cannot be relied on to explain why contact is within nama-rupa.

The full version is as follows:

For example, the sankhara thought arises: "I feel like chocolate". This is an internal contact.

Then nama-rupa, under the influence of ignorance (instead of eradicating that unwholesome thought), makes the intentional decision: "Yes, lets find chocolate".

Then contact is made externally with chocolate when searching for chocolate.
We have had this discussion 10000 times. I don't think we need to discuss it for all time. We agree on very little. No need to keep beating the dead horse.
"Because of attachment to doctrines one approaches and refutes,
For those unattached, how can they dispute?
Not because self or no-self are said to be true,
He has only shaken off all harmful views."


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Re: Jhana

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:27 pm We have had this discussion 10000 times. I don't think we need to discuss it for all time. We agree on very little. No need to keep beating the dead horse.
Obviously, the above shows a misunderstanding of the mind, showing an inability to control the mind and its impulses.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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