Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:49 pm
Ratnakar wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:22 am
If indeed that's the case buddha would say the meditator emerge from second jhana and enter first jhana but buddha didn't say such a thing
And You clearly neglect the bold and very explicit statement of the buddha
I'm neglecting nothing. What is the sutta saying? Let's take a look:
Furthermore, take a mendicant who, as the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, enters and remains in the second absorption.
A mendicant. A mendicant. One who is practicing for jhāna. A monk, or a nun, or a layperson, or an ascetic.
As the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled. Vitakka-vicāra are stilled, ceased, not arisen, not active.
Enters and remains in the second absorption. With the stilling of vitakka-vicāra, their cessation, their non-arising, non-activity, there is the 2nd jhāna. The nimitta of the 2nd jhāna is the absence of vitakka-vicāra whilst the other jhāna factors remain.
While a mendicant is in such a meditation. The mendicant is in the 2nd jhāna.
Should perceptions and attentions accompanied by placing of the mind and keeping it connected beset them, that’s an affliction for them. Whilst in the 2nd jhāna should vitakka-vicāra come into existence, arise, become active this is an affliction, a dart, a thorn to the attainment.
Suppose a happy person were to experience pain; that would be an affliction for them. In the same way, should perceptions and attentions accompanied by placing of the mind and keeping it connected beset them, that’s an affliction for them". If when experiencing happiness pain arises that is an affliction, a dart, a thorn to the happiness. When pain arises happiness is no longer present. Pain is a thorn to happiness, as it is the opposite to happiness. When pain is, happiness is not. Here the Buddha teaches via a simile, for just like how pain removes the state of happiness so does the arising of vitakka-vicāra remove the state of the 2nd jhāna.
I think you can be right here But the buddha didn't explicitly say they fall to lower jhana, on the contrary to your argument buddha even said he went to higher 3rd jhana just to avoid vitakka completely
An9.41
I was entering and remaining in the second absorption. While I was in that meditation, perceptions and attentions accompanied by placing the mind beset me, and that was an affliction for me. Suppose a happy person were to experience pain; that would be an affliction for them. In the same way, when perceptions and attentions accompanied by placing the mind and keeping it connected beset me, that was an affliction for me.
Then I thought, ‘Why don’t I, with the fading away of rapture, enter and remain in the third absorption
If buddha follow your argument he will say "why don't I purify the second jhana or why don't i go back to second jhana ?"
Buddha explicitly said he fall to first jhana from the second jhana in dn16, he would do the same if he really means that
Dn16
Then the Buddha emerged from the cessation of perception and feeling and entered the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. Emerging from that, he successively entered into and emerged from the dimension of nothingness, the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of infinite space, the fourth absorption, the third absorption, the second absorption, and the first absorption
.
Remember that buddha said not once but twice that he was still in that second jhana
1.I was entering and remaining in the second absorption
2.While I was in that meditation
So I don't think even if buddha said thrice or ten times stressing only that you would listen sir but I hope I am wrong
The same argument for sound. Should sound arise then one is not in the 1st jhāna. The implication of this is that whilst in jhāna one does not experience the 5 senses, only the 6th with an image (rūpa) as object.
Staying in the neighborhood of women doesn't make you fall from celibacy does it?
So sound too won't make you fall from the first jhana
Buddha advice us to avoid staying in the neighborhood of women because it thorn us regarding preserving our celibacy especially mental celibacy in the same way we need to avoid sound because it thorns us
If really in first jhana there is no sound at all I don't think sound will even be a concern let alone a thorn
You still avoid my question whether sound is thorn in jhana or outside of jhana
I contradict the Vibhaṅga, which your English translation is based on. If we look at the Pāli we see the following:
I never quoted vibhanga so you don't contradict vibhanga sir, you contradict the buddha you contradict the sutta, but of course you are free to believe whatever you want to believe sir
Mn13
Ko ca, bhikkhave, kāmānaṁ assādo?
And what, Bhikkhus, is the enjoyment of kāmānaṁ?
Pañcime, bhikkhave, kāmaguṇā.
There are five strings of lust.
Katame pañca?
What five?
Cakkhuviññeyyā rūpā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṁhitā rajanīyā,
Sights known by the eye that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing.
sotaviññeyyā saddā …pe…
Sounds known by the ear …
ghānaviññeyyā gandhā …
Smells known by the nose …
jivhāviññeyyā rasā …
Tastes known by the tongue …
kāyaviññeyyā phoṭṭhabbā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṁhitā rajanīyā—
Touches known by the body that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing.
ime kho, bhikkhave, pañca kāmaguṇā.
These are the five kinds of strings of lust.
Yaṁ kho, bhikkhave, ime pañca kāmaguṇe paṭicca uppajjati sukhaṁ somanassaṁ—ayaṁ kāmānaṁ assādo.
The pleasure and happiness that arise from these five strings of lust: this is the enjoyment of kāmāguna.
Buddha said the pleasure and happiness that arise not the sense objects itself so in first jhana the pleasure and happiness regarding desirable sense objects won't arise, instead of happiness it's equanimity that arise from those 5 objects in first jhana
Mn137
And in this context what are the six kinds of lay equanimity? When seeing a sight with the eye, equanimity arises for the uneducated ordinary person—a foolish ordinary person who has not overcome their limitations and the results of deeds, and is blind to the drawbacks. Such equanimity does not transcend the sight.
Pleasure and happiness is a mental thing it's not physical thing, here happiness and pleasure is a feeling that arise due to body contact
Feeling is one of four part of namakaya together with perception, intention and consciousness they form mental body/mental aggregates
You should differentiate between 5 body contacts and 5 feeling born body contacts
Dn13
In the same way, the five kinds of sensual stimulation are called ‘chains’ and ‘fetters’ in the training of the Noble One. What five? Sights known by the eye that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing. Sounds known by the ear … Smells known by the nose … Tastes known by the tongue … Touches known by the body that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing.
These are the five kinds of sensual stimulation that are called ‘chains’ and ‘fetters’ in the training of the Noble One. The brahmins proficient in the three Vedas enjoy these five kinds of sensual stimulation tied, infatuated, attached, blind to the drawbacks, and not understanding the escape. long as they enjoy them it’s impossible that they will, when the body breaks up, after death, be reborn in the company of Brahmā.
Notice that buddha said 5 feeling born contacts is a fetter in his teaching if really buddha follow your argument that sense objects are fetters then non blind and deaf people cant even follow the teaching let alone become stream enterer
It's only through these 5 feeling borns contacts that craving arise so either you discard the feeling or discard the craving
And here the buddha said the gratification of sensual pleasure
Mn13
And what is the gratification of sensual pleasures? There are these five kinds of sensual stimulation. What five? Sights known by the eye that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing. Sounds known by the ear … Smells known by the nose … Tastes known by the tongue … Touches known by the body that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing. These are the five kinds of sensual stimulation. The pleasure and happiness that arise from these five kinds of sensual stimulation: this is the gratification of sensual pleasures.
You would think that avoiding the gratification of sensual pleasure is the seclusion or escape of sensual pleasure
But
Mn13
And what is the escape from sensual pleasures? Removing and giving up desire and greed for sensual pleasures: this is the escape from sensual pleasures
So not only buddha said you don't need to avoid sense objects you don't need to avoid feeling born contacts/sense objects too
Here the buddha said that indeed feeling born body contacts can arise
Mn38
When they see a sight with their eyes, if it’s pleasant they don’t desire it, and if it’s unpleasant they don’t dislike it. They live with mindfulness of the body established and a limitless heart. And they truly understand the freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom where those arisen bad, unskillful qualities cease without anything left over.
It's interesting that buddha said quite secluded from sensual pleasure instead of completely secluded from sensual pleasures
What are those unskillful qualities again ?
And is sight part of unskillful qualities ?
Mn38
If the faculty of sight were left unrestrained, bad unskillful qualities of desire and aversion would become overwhelming
Notice that buddha directly explicitly refer to desire and aversion not the sight itself as unskillful qualities and in first jhana you are quite secluded from desire and aversion
In conjunction when we look at suttas like SN 35.13 we can see that the kāmā are merely sights, sounds, tastes etc. So, you can see, based on the suttas it is emphatically denied that "kāmā" are "sensual pleasures", and so the standard pericope for entering the 1st jhāna would read as:
It's quite secluded from sensual pleasures you can refer to your own quote
Yaṁ kho, bhikkhave, ime pañca kāmaguṇe paṭicca uppajjati sukhaṁ somanassaṁ—ayaṁ kāmānaṁ assādo.[/i][/b]
The pleasure and happiness that arise from these five strings of lust: this is the (enjoyment of kāmāguna)/sensual pleasures
In other words the 1st jhāna is a state temporarily free from the 5 senses, which is why sound is a thorn to it and why saññāmanasikārā can knock you out of it.
Here I quote it again
Mn38
If the faculty of sight were left unrestrained, bad unskillful qualities of desire and aversion would become overwhelming
So what kind of desires that is considered as unskillful qualities ?
An 6.73
Mendicants, without giving up these six qualities you can’t enter and remain in the first absorption. What six? Desire for sensual pleasures, ill will, dullness and drowsiness, restlessness and remorse, and doubt. And the drawbacks of sensual pleasures haven’t been truly seen clearly with right wisdom. Without giving up these six qualities you can’t enter and remain in the first absorption
.
So sensual desires is what buddha considered as unskillful qualities
This is also why whilst in jhāna Māra is temporarilly blinded:
Mara is desire sir
Sn 23.35
Rādha, you should give up any desire, any greed, any desire and greed for whatever is Māra
Take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.
This is called a mendicant who, having gone to the end of the world, meditates at the end of the world.
They are at the end of the world, as they have temporarily left behind the 5 senses:
Yes only when you gives up the desire for the world you go tothe end of the world
Mn38
Giving up desire for the world, they meditate with a heart rid of desire, cleansing the mind of desire. Giving up ill will and malevolence, they meditate with a mind rid of ill will, full of compassion for all living beings, cleansing the mind of ill will. Giving up dullness and drowsiness, they meditate with a mind rid of dullness and drowsiness, perceiving light, mindful and aware, cleansing the mind of dullness and drowsiness. Giving up restlessness and remorse, they meditate without restlessness, their mind peaceful inside, cleansing the mind of restlessness and remorse. Giving up doubt, they meditate having gone beyond doubt, not undecided about skillful qualities, cleansing the mind of doubt.
They give up these five hindrances, corruptions of the heart that weaken wisdom. Then, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, they enter and remain in the first absorption
Sn35.116
Mendicants, I say it’s not possible to know or see or reach the end of the world by traveling. But I also say there’s no making an end of suffering without reaching the end of the world.
Yes only in the end of the world you don't suffer
So how to go to the end of the world ?
Is really cessation of sight or cessation of eye the end of the world ?
Sn35.232
If the eye were the fetter of sights, or if sights were the fetter of the eye, this living of the spiritual life for the complete ending of suffering would not be found. However, since this is not the case, but the fetter there is the desire and greed that arises from the pair of them, this living of the spiritual life for the complete ending of suffering is found
Buddha even refuted the idea that sight or eye can be a fetter or thorn here so you go to the end of the world through cessation of desire
,Here the buddha argue with people who say only when you don't hear sound or sense objects you have developed your faculties saying if that's is the case then blind and deaf people have a developed faculties
Mn152
Uttara, does Pārāsariya teach his disciples the development of the faculties?”
“He does, Master Gotama.”
“But how does he teach it?”
“Master Gotama, it’s when the eye sees no sight and the ear hears no sound. That’s how Pārāsariya teaches his disciples the development of the faculties.”
“In that case, Uttara, a blind person and a deaf person will have developed faculties according to what Pārāsariya says. For a blind person sees no sight with the eye and a deaf person hears no sound with the ear.” When he said this, Uttara sat silent, embarrassed, shoulders drooping, downcast, depressed, with nothing to say.
Knowing this, the Buddha addressed Venerable Ānanda, “Ānanda, the development of the faculties taught by Pārāsariya is quite different from the supreme development of the faculties in the training of the Noble One.”
“Now is the time, Blessed One! Now is the time, Holy One. Let the Buddha teach the supreme development of the faculties in the training of the Noble One. The mendicants will listen and remember it.”
“Well then, Ānanda, listen and pay close attention, I will speak.”
“Yes, sir,” Ānanda replied. The Buddha said this:
“And how, Ānanda, is there the supreme development of the faculties in the training of the Noble One? When a mendicant sees a sight with their eyes, liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking come up in them. They understand: ‘Liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking have come up in me. That’s conditioned, coarse, and dependently originated. But this is peaceful and sublime, namely equanimity.’ Then the liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking that came up in them cease, and equanimity becomes stabilized. It’s like how a person with good sight might open their eyes then shut them; or might shut their eyes then open them. Such is the speed, the swiftness, the ease with which any liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking at all that came up in them cease, and equanimity becomes stabilized. In the training of the Noble One this is called the supreme development of the faculties regarding sights known by the eye.
So what's the relationship between sense objects and a developed faculties ?
There is no relationship at all ,the only relationship that exists is with a developed faculties and desires
Mn38
If the faculty of sight were left unrestrained, bad unskillful qualities of desire and aversion would become overwhelming
Notice that the buddha didn't say you don't see, you see but you abandon it/the sight you neglect it/sight you don't focus on it that's how you protect and develop your eye faculty and protecting faculties + giving up 5 hindrances is precursor to first jhana
An3.16
And how does a mendicant guard the sense doors? When a mendicant sees a sight with their eyes, they don’t get caught up in the features and details. If the faculty of sight were left unrestrained, bad unskillful qualities of desire and aversion would become overwhelming. For this reason, they practice restraint, protecting the faculty of sight, and achieving its restraint
.
Mn75
These sentient beings who are not free from sensual pleasures—being consumed by craving for sensual pleasures, burning with passion for sensual pleasures—have impaired sense faculties. So even though sensual pleasures are actually painful to touch, they have a distorted perception that they are pleasant.
Here the buddha said that free/secluded from sensual pleasures is free from craving for sensual pleasures and those who are not free have not developed and protected their faculties
Now, perhaps you could furnish us as to why you think your Abhidhamma definition of "secluded from sensual pleasures" is more preferable, and how you square a non-absorbed jhāna with the above suttas?
If I am not mistaken in late abhidhamma and visuddhimagga you are completely off from 5 senses in first jhana so abhidhamma should support your cause here not me
. Now I really must dash. The fire kasiṇa awaits. 
