Alms-giving to what seems like a corrupt temple in my city

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
mario92
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Re: Alms-giving to what seems like a corrupt temple in my city

Post by mario92 »

I think they are not corrupt, i think there are some arahants from that tradition even a living one, acariya thoon was an arahant. This is one of the best temples. They helped me with a jhana adiction that i overcome just by reading one of his books called paradigm shift.
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salayatananirodha
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Re: Alms-giving to what seems like a corrupt temple in my city

Post by salayatananirodha »

https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/Texts-and-Translations/Short-Pieces/Dakkhinavibhangasuttam.htm#toc4 wrote:Bhavissanti kho pan' Ānanda anāgatam-addhānaṁ,
There will be in the future, Ānanda,

gotrabhuno kāsāvakaṇṭhā dussīlā pāpadhammā.

clansmen with an ochre robe around their necks who are unvirtuous and bad-natured.

Tesu dussīlesu Saṅghaṁ uddissa dānaṁ dassanti
But even a gift that is given to those unvirtuous ones because of the Community

tadā pāhaṁ Ānanda Saṅghagataṁ dakkhiṇaṁ asaṅkheyyaṁ appameyyaṁ vadāmi.
at that time, Ānanda, will be an immeasureable, unlimited offering to the Community, I say.

Na tvevāhaṁ Ānanda kenaci pariyāyena,
I certainly in no way, Ānanda,

Saṅghagatāya dakkhiṇāya pāṭipuggalikaṁ dānaṁ mahapphalataraṁ vadāmi.
say that a gift to an individual can have greater fruit than an offering to a Community.
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


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https://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/
http://buddhadust.net/backmatter/indexe ... ta_toc.htm
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Alms-giving to what seems like a corrupt temple in my city

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

mario92 wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:38 pmI think they are not corrupt, I think there are some arahants from that tradition even a living one, acariya thoon was an arahant.
To be honest, you do not know that he was an Arahant, and his closest disciples did not know either. It is mere speculation and hearsay. He may have been an Arahant, but only one with direct knowledge of other's minds could know for sure. It is difficult to know if another is an Arahant. Even those who attained Arahantship during the time of the Buddha were unsure of their own attainments so they went to see the Buddha for confirmation. A short story will illustrate the problem.

A young monk lived in dependence on an Arahant. Living in dependence is required during the first five years as a monk to get a proper training. One living in dependence performs numerous duties for his teacher, such as cleaning the residence, washing robes, and carrying his teachers almsbowl to and from the village when they walk for alms together. One day, while walking behind his teacher for alms, the young monk asked: “Venerable sir, how can one know if another is an Arahant?” The Arahant replied: “It is not easy, friend, to know if another is an Arahant. One could live in dependence on an Arahant, perform all of the duties for him, and walk for alms behind him carrying his almsbowl, without knowing that he is an Arahant.” Even when given this hint, the young monk did not realise that his teacher was an Arahant.

My preceptor, Venerable Mahāsi Sayādaw, may have been an Arahant. Many believed it to be so, but it is mere speculation and hearsay. I could relate an anecdote to illustrate that he was apparently free from fear, but inferences from anecdotes are not direct knowledge of the mental state of another.

When dealing with monks who might be corrupt, the skilful attitude is to respect what they represent.

Should One Honour Shameless and Immoral Monks?
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mario92
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Re: Alms-giving to what seems like a corrupt temple in my city

Post by mario92 »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:08 am
mario92 wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:38 pmI think they are not corrupt, I think there are some arahants from that tradition even a living one, acariya thoon was an arahant.
To be honest, you do not know that he was an Arahant, and his closest disciples did not know either. It is mere speculation and hearsay. He may have been an Arahant, but only one with direct knowledge of other's minds could know for sure. It is difficult to know if another is an Arahant. Even those who attained Arahantship during the time of the Buddha were unsure of their own attainments so they went to see the Buddha for confirmation. A short story will illustrate the problem.

A young monk lived in dependence on an Arahant. Living in dependence is required during the first five years as a monk to get a proper training. One living in dependence performs numerous duties for his teacher, such as cleaning the residence, washing robes, and carrying his teachers almsbowl to and from the village when they walk for alms together. One day, while walking behind his teacher for alms, the young monk asked: “Venerable sir, how can one know if another is an Arahant?” The Arahant replied: “It is not easy, friend, to know if another is an Arahant. One could live in dependence on an Arahant, perform all of the duties for him, and walk for alms behind him carrying his almsbowl, without knowing that he is an Arahant.” Even when given this hint, the young monk did not realise that his teacher was an Arahant.

My preceptor, Venerable Mahāsi Sayādaw, may have been an Arahant. Many believed it to be so, but it is mere speculation and hearsay. I could relate an anecdote to illustrate that he was apparently free from fear, but inferences from anecdotes are not direct knowledge of the mental state of another.

When dealing with monks who might be corrupt, the skilful attitude is to respect what they represent.

Should One Honour Shameless and Immoral Monks?
Thank you venerable :namaste:
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salayatananirodha
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Re: Alms-giving to what seems like a corrupt temple in my city

Post by salayatananirodha »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:08 am Even those who attained Arahantship during the time of the Buddha were unsure of their own attainments so they went to see the Buddha for confirmation.
i recall a sutta that says that an arahant knows they are freed the same as a person with both hands cut off knows by just looking down?
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadhamma/
https://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/
http://buddhadust.net/backmatter/indexe ... ta_toc.htm
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
Notice
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Re: Alms-giving to what seems like a corrupt temple in my city

Post by Notice »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:52 pm The belief is that nowadays only two kinds of individuals can be found: those who have sufficient perfections to gain the path if they strive hard enough, and those who cannot attain the path however hard they try. During the time of the Buddha there were also those with sufficient perfections to attain the path on listening to a single verse, or those who can gain the path after listening to a longer discourse.
Appreciate the response!

I have seen you make this divide earlier in another thread where you put the 7 year disclaimer next to the individuals that attain the path through striving but does that imply that if one does not attain it within 7 years in this lifetime it won’t be attained at all in this lifetime? Perhaps i am missing an angle here but that seems unlikely given accounts of people attaining the path in a single lifetime over a longer period or would those examples then be categorized as ‘low understanding’?

In the last category there was a brief mention of mentally ill people although elsewhere you specifically called it mental retardation in relation to attainment of nibbana. I am assuming it is more so the latter than the former considering the former is in some sense what we all are to one degree or another before enlightenment.
It is not arbitrary. It all depends on causes and conditions. The perfection of individuals is far too complex for anyone other than a Buddha to fully comprehend.
I may get back to you on this some other time otherwise this post would be a bit too elaborate and I don’t want to take up much of your time here.
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Re: Alms-giving to what seems like a corrupt temple in my city

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Notice wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:05 pmI have seen you make this divide earlier in another thread where you put the 7 year disclaimer next to the individuals that attain the path through striving but does that imply that if one does not attain it within 7 years in this lifetime it won’t be attained at all in this lifetime?
No, but if they give up after seven years, the will stop progressing. If they keep working hard for 70 years they may attain the goal.

See The Shortest Route to Nibbāna.
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Suppose there is a destination called “El Dorado” to be reached and that different individuals, currently living at different distances from it, all set out with different degrees of faith and enthusiasm.
  1. Some are 10,000 miles away. If they set off at a steady 10 miles a day, they will reach it in 1,000 days.
  2. Others are 10,000 miles away, and set off at 10 miles a day, but mostly only walk 1 mile. They will reach it in about 24 years if they live that long.
  3. Others are only 1,000 miles away, and set off at 10 miles a day for ten days, but then stop, and don’t walk any further. They will never reach the goal even if they live to be 100 years old.
  4. Others are only 1,000 miles away, and set off at a run, covering 100 miles a day on average. They will reach it in just 10 days.
One can see that there would be any number of different permutations and combinations of different individuals at different distances from El Dorado, applying different degrees of effort, and taking widely divergent times to reach the goal. Many will fail to reach their destination before they die.
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jabalí
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Re: Alms-giving to what seems like a corrupt temple in my city

Post by jabalí »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:08 am My preceptor, Venerable Mahāsi Sayādaw, may have been an Arahant. Many believed it to be so, but it is mere speculation and hearsay. I could relate an anecdote to illustrate that he was apparently free from fear, but inferences from anecdotes are not direct knowledge of the mental state of another.

Could you relate the anecdote please?
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Re: Alms-giving to what seems like a corrupt temple in my city

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

jabalí wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:34 pmCould you relate the anecdote please?
The dining hall at Mahāsi Yekthā has a high ceiling with multiple large ceiling fans keeping the monks somewhat cooler at meal times.

I heard, that at one time one of these ceiling fans came loose and fell to the ground right beside the Sayādaw. Allegedly, he just called over someone to clear up the mess and continued eating his meal unperturbed by his near death experience.

I think most of us would jump up, or sit there shaking for some time, before recovering our composure.
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Re: Alms-giving to what seems like a corrupt temple in my city

Post by jabalí »

Thank you :namaste:
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