Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by Coëmgenu »

robertk wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:18 pm
pitithefool wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:13 pm
robertk wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:49 pm
Theravādin: If so, it must be equally allowed that he can also see, smell, taste and touch objects. This you deny… You must also allow that he enters .Jhana enjoying auditory consciousness. You deny, for you agree that samādhi arises in one who is enjoying mental objects as such? But if you admit that anyone who is actually enjoying sounds hears sounds, and that samādhi is the property of one who is actually enjoying mental objects as such, you should not affirm that one in the samādhi of jhāna hears sounds. If you insist that he does, you have here two parallel mental procedures going on at the same time…
Where exactly is this quote from?
From the Abhidhamma
Kathāvatthu
I think Piti was looking for the modern reference number à la SuttaCentral.

Kv18.8

Piti, you could have found it by looking at the end of the earlier pasted SuttaCentral link.
Then, the monks sang this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and rots.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.

(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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frank k
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

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pitithefool wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:11 pm ...
Yes exactly thank you lol! :D

I haven't figured out how to do a profile picture but I really want a picture of Mr. T as my profile pic on here.
Can't wait to see your new profile pic.

here a google image search for mr. t:
https://www.google.com/search?q=mr.+t+i ... 8&dpr=1.5

If you're in windows 10 pc, right mouse button on the picture you want, do 'save as' from the menu.
then on dhammawheel upper right side, should be menu under your user name, one of those menu options should let you upload that picture you saved.
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frank k
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by frank k »

Dhammanando wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:10 pm
frank k wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:34 pm Bhante, I think you know perfectly well what I mean when I stated what I said, and are trying to bog down discussion.
I replied to your post in good faith.

If your intended meaning was something other than what I took it to be, then I can assure you I did not know this at all, let alone "perfectly well".
Sorry Bhante. That was rude of me to presume.
I relinquish the original question and won't press you on the matter.
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pitithefool
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by pitithefool »

frank k wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:25 pm
Can't wait to see your new profile pic.

here a google image search for mr. t:
https://www.google.com/search?q=mr.+t+i ... 8&dpr=1.5

If you're in windows 10 pc, right mouse button on the picture you want, do 'save as' from the menu.
then on dhammawheel upper right side, should be menu under your user name, one of those menu options should let you upload that picture you saved.

I still can't figure it out :(

When I click on it, It says User Control Panel, Profile and Logout

I don't see a place to add a picture within any of those. Can you please help me?
Please note: This profile picture is not actually a picture of the user.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by Ceisiwr »

pitithefool wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:40 pm
frank k wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:25 pm
Can't wait to see your new profile pic.

here a google image search for mr. t:
https://www.google.com/search?q=mr.+t+i ... 8&dpr=1.5

If you're in windows 10 pc, right mouse button on the picture you want, do 'save as' from the menu.
then on dhammawheel upper right side, should be menu under your user name, one of those menu options should let you upload that picture you saved.

I still can't figure it out :(

When I click on it, It says User Control Panel, Profile and Logout

I don't see a place to add a picture within any of those. Can you please help me?
See below. The dimension limitations are at the top. You can resize pictures for free here: https://picresize.com/
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64F387B9-7851-4392-9D51-ECAFA06AA06C.jpeg
736F3B58-80EA-413F-B0FA-9A8E4BED3765.jpeg
Mendicants, a mendicant who has five things will soon penetrate the unshakable. What five? It’s when a mendicant has attained the analytical knowledge of meaning, the analytical knowledge of Dhamma, the analytical knowledge of language, the analytical knowledge of discernment and they review the extent of their mind’s freedom. A mendicant who has these five things will soon penetrate the unshakable.”

AN 5.95
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pitithefool
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by pitithefool »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:55 pm
It worked! :thanks:

:anjali: :anjali: :anjali:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by Ceisiwr »

pitithefool wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:54 am
I used the word implicit for that very reason.
I'm also using inductive reasoning rather than deductive reasoning, and even if I were using deductive reasoning, that isn't the line of logic that I used in the first place, so that fallacy doesn't apply here.
I appreciate you are taking a break from debating, but I just wanted to add some final thoughts. The 1st being be wary of inductive reasoning. It is irrational and does not lead to knowledge. The Buddha rejected it.
This is the line of reasoning that I'm actually using:
In MN 43, the five faculties are listed, jhana is mentioned, AND states of being "divorced from the five sense faculties" are mentioned.
The states of being mentioned that are divorced from the 5 faculties are infinite space, infinite consciousness and nothingness.
The states listed do not include jhana.
If the jhanas are also divorced from the five senses, they should also be listed here.
Therefore, this sutta likely implies that jhanas are not divorced from the five senses.
It does not logically follow that the jhānā are of 5 sense experience because the formless are stated to be without them.

P1) The formless are stated to be without 5 sense experience.
P2) The jhānā are not stated to be without the 5 sense experience.
P3) The jhānā are not the formless attainments.
C) Therefore, the 5 senses are experience in the jhānā.

P1) If you are a ski instructor, then you have a job.
P2) Paul does not say if he has a job.
P3) I know he is not a ski instructor
C) Therefore, he does not have a job

If P, then Q.
Therefore, if not P, then not Q.

This is still the logical fallacy of denying the antecedent. What is overcome for the formless to occur is rūpa, which quite literally means "image" or "form". In the non-dual state dependent upon the fire kasiṇa it is the rūpa (image) that arises dependent upon the meditation which is overcome in order to enter infinite space.
Mendicants, a mendicant who has five things will soon penetrate the unshakable. What five? It’s when a mendicant has attained the analytical knowledge of meaning, the analytical knowledge of Dhamma, the analytical knowledge of language, the analytical knowledge of discernment and they review the extent of their mind’s freedom. A mendicant who has these five things will soon penetrate the unshakable.”

AN 5.95
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confusedlayman
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

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Stop discusing this topic if u not going to do jhana meditstion.. if u going to do.. type here after personal expeirece..
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by Coëmgenu »

People needn't comply with such a ludicrous request. This is a public forum and anyone can post on-topic material that is not malignant.
Then, the monks sang this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and rots.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.

(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by Ceisiwr »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 3:52 pm Stop discusing this topic if u not going to do jhana meditstion.. if u going to do.. type here after personal expeirece..
I do “do Jhana meditation” but, as pointed out above, that isn’t the only criteria for joining in.
Mendicants, a mendicant who has five things will soon penetrate the unshakable. What five? It’s when a mendicant has attained the analytical knowledge of meaning, the analytical knowledge of Dhamma, the analytical knowledge of language, the analytical knowledge of discernment and they review the extent of their mind’s freedom. A mendicant who has these five things will soon penetrate the unshakable.”

AN 5.95
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confusedlayman
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by confusedlayman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:44 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 3:52 pm Stop discusing this topic if u not going to do jhana meditstion.. if u going to do.. type here after personal expeirece..
I do “do Jhana meditation” but, as pointed out above, that isn’t the only criteria for joining in.
Then u can be lost in speculation and papanca
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Too many lessons internalized from the Spherical Samaṇakuttaka can transform someone from a confused person into a confused-yet-condescending person with haughty pretensions. You've been reading too many Dharma Talks given by SteRo and are taking on his bad habits.
Then, the monks sang this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and rots.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.

(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by Ceisiwr »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:48 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:44 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 3:52 pm Stop discusing this topic if u not going to do jhana meditstion.. if u going to do.. type here after personal expeirece..
I do “do Jhana meditation” but, as pointed out above, that isn’t the only criteria for joining in.
Then u can be lost in speculation and papanca
This doesn’t make sense.
Mendicants, a mendicant who has five things will soon penetrate the unshakable. What five? It’s when a mendicant has attained the analytical knowledge of meaning, the analytical knowledge of Dhamma, the analytical knowledge of language, the analytical knowledge of discernment and they review the extent of their mind’s freedom. A mendicant who has these five things will soon penetrate the unshakable.”

AN 5.95
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pitithefool
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by pitithefool »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:07 am I appreciate you are taking a break from debating, but I just wanted to add some final thoughts. The 1st being be wary of inductive reasoning. It is irrational and does not lead to knowledge. The Buddha rejected it.
Would you rather me speak from personal experience? lol

I'm not saying the jhana are of the 5 senses. That would be a logical fallacy.

I'm saying that according this sutta, it would appear that they are not necessarilydivorced from them.
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by Ceisiwr »

pitithefool wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:23 am
Would you rather me speak from personal experience? lol
Its better if we do not. In order to debate this we need a common reference. These are the suttas. Stating personal experiences doesn't move the conversation along. The same in quoting monks whom we agree with.
I'm not saying the jhana are of the 5 senses. That would be a logical fallacy.

I'm saying that according this sutta, it would appear that they are not necessarilydivorced from them.
I did read your previous post. You said you are arriving at it via induction. I must then ask if you have solved the problem of induction? If not, I would leave it behind. I mentioned that the Buddha rejected induction. He also rejected the synthetic a priori. If we look to DN 1, rather than being a list of wrong views it actually states the bases for views. If you look at all of the ascetics in DN 1 bar the sceptics, you can see that they all arrive at their position through either inductive reasoning or the synthetic a priori. Elsewhere the Buddha called views like this "personal views" that are not knowledge, and in other suttas gave a psychological and emotive underpinning to them. This is similar to Hume, who rejected both types of reasoning and viewed reason as being "the slave of the passions". Instead the Buddha preferred analytical knowledge such as what we see in paṭiccasamuppāda, which is usually mistaken to be a model of causality.
“A senior mendicant with five qualities is dear and beloved to their spiritual companions, respected and admired. What five? They have attained the analytical knowledge [paṭisambhidā] of meaning, the analytical knowledge of the Dhamma, the analytical knowledge of language, the analytical knowledge of discernment, and he is skilful and diligent in attending to the diverse chores that are to be done for his fellow monks..."
AN 5.86

Returning to the topic at hand, rather than induction we can arrive at the jhānā being free of 5 sense experience via deduction:

P1) Kāmā are external sensory objects.
P2) The jhānā are secluded from the kāmā.
C) Therefore, the jhānā are without sensory contact.

We could try similar reasoning with saññāmanasikārā. The difference then between the jhānā and the formless is the presence of rūpa.
Mendicants, a mendicant who has five things will soon penetrate the unshakable. What five? It’s when a mendicant has attained the analytical knowledge of meaning, the analytical knowledge of Dhamma, the analytical knowledge of language, the analytical knowledge of discernment and they review the extent of their mind’s freedom. A mendicant who has these five things will soon penetrate the unshakable.”

AN 5.95
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