the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
mjaviem
Posts: 299
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:06 pm

Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by mjaviem »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:08 pm
mjaviem wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:39 pm Could you quote a Sutta … so I can correct my view?
I recollected my manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two...five, ten...fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand, many eons of cosmic contraction, many eons of cosmic expansion, many eons of cosmic contraction & expansion: 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there.


Maha-Saccaka Sutta
Good Sutta you are pointing me to, thank you. Still I don't see what I have said in disagreement. I left past lifes "undeclared". You can read what I said believeing we have a special connection to past lifes or you can read it without believing it. I don't see any disagreement (yet I can still be wrong).
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 5945
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino »

mjaviem wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:47 pm You can read what I said believing we have a special connection to past lifes or you can read it without believing it.
:shrug:
"All men's souls are immortal, but the souls of the righteous are immortal and divine." -Socrates
Good for Your Soul
User avatar
mjaviem
Posts: 299
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:06 pm

Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by mjaviem »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:51 pm
mjaviem wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:47 pm You can read what I said believing we have a special connection to past lifes or you can read it without believing it.
:shrug:
yes, I don't understand you either.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
pegembara
Posts: 2014
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by pegembara »

mjaviem wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:53 pm In my flawed view, I think:
  • There is the world out there (trees, rivers, clouds, wind, animals, humans, cities, stars, etc.), all ending some day.
  • There are this mortal body and perishable forms, these fleeting sensations, these disrupted perceptions and changing mental activity. And there is consciousness of some of this, sometimes.
  • There is this clinging to some or all above (aggregates & the world). This sets us apart from the world dividing what's us and our stuffs from the rest. And there's this craving to turn all this our way and to make all our own.
  • There is something eternal, not depending on any conditions.
When we die I think there is no more us but still there is others, other selves and new ones coming to existence, there and then.

And if we awaken, again, there is no more us. Our selves are annhilated yes, the annhilation is of something unsubstancial so nothing really annhilated there, yes. And what is left after death in this case is also something eternal yes, that that was obscured to us before enlightenment with suffering and turbulence. And something impermanent is also left too, that world that is out there.
There is no "world" out there. It's all a construction derived from the six senses.
It exists by virtue of the six senses.
"I tell you, friend, that it is not possible by traveling to know or see or reach a far end of the cosmos where one does not take birth, age, die, pass away, or reappear. But at the same time, I tell you that there is no making an end of suffering & stress without reaching the end of the cosmos. Yet it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & intellect, that I declare that there is the cosmos, the origination of the cosmos, the cessation of the cosmos, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of the cosmos."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 5945
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by cappuccino »

pegembara wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:58 am There is no world out there.
"All men's souls are immortal, but the souls of the righteous are immortal and divine." -Socrates
Good for Your Soul
User avatar
mjaviem
Posts: 299
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:06 pm

Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by mjaviem »

pegembara wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:58 am ...
There is no "world" out there. It's all a construction derived from the six senses.
It exists by virtue of the six senses.
"I tell you, friend, that it is not possible by traveling to know or see or reach a far end of the cosmos where one does not take birth, age, die, pass away, or reappear. But at the same time, I tell you that there is no making an end of suffering & stress without reaching the end of the cosmos. Yet it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & intellect, that I declare that there is the cosmos, the origination of the cosmos, the cessation of the cosmos, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of the cosmos."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
I think the teachings are not about explaining the world but explaining our experience of the world, so I think you can't say "there is no world" from the Suttas. You can say it with a philosophical argument even using the Suttas but I don't believe that's the intended teaching.

I don't think "the cosmos" in AN4.45 means other than "the construction of the cosmos derived from the six senses" as you referred. And the very SN12.15 Sutta you are quoting says “... ‘Everything exists’: That is one extreme. ‘Everything doesn’t exist’: That is a second extreme.5 Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathāgata teaches the Dhamma via the middle:...". Not sure what is its true meaning but it could also mean "there is no world" is an extreme :shrug:
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
pegembara
Posts: 2014
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by pegembara »

mjaviem wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:02 am
pegembara wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:58 am ...
There is no "world" out there. It's all a construction derived from the six senses.
It exists by virtue of the six senses.
"I tell you, friend, that it is not possible by traveling to know or see or reach a far end of the cosmos where one does not take birth, age, die, pass away, or reappear. But at the same time, I tell you that there is no making an end of suffering & stress without reaching the end of the cosmos. Yet it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & intellect, that I declare that there is the cosmos, the origination of the cosmos, the cessation of the cosmos, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of the cosmos."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
I think the teachings are not about explaining the world but explaining our experience of the world, so I think you can't say "there is no world" from the Suttas. You can say it with a philosophical argument even using the Suttas but I don't believe that's the intended teaching.

I don't think "the cosmos" in AN4.45 means other than "the construction of the cosmos derived from the six senses" as you referred. And the very SN12.15 Sutta you are quoting says “... ‘Everything exists’: That is one extreme. ‘Everything doesn’t exist’: That is a second extreme.5 Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathāgata teaches the Dhamma via the middle:...". Not sure what is its true meaning but it could also mean "there is no world" is an extreme :shrug:
Exactly. If you are not experiencing the world there is no world for you within your fathom long body. You create the world as does everyone else create theirs. Sometimes your world is quite similar but never identical and sometimes they are worlds apart. That is the teaching of dependent co-arising. The world is literally in your six senses.

The world doesn't exist is one extreme and the world truly exist is the other extreme.

Loka Sutta. The origin and continuance of the world depends on the six senses.
https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/loka-sutta
"I will teach you the origination of the world & the ending of the world. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded to the Blessed One.

The Blessed One said: "And what is the origination of the world? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact.

"And what is the ending of the world? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
You create the world from your six senses. If you were an earthworm, that "world" would be very different.
For the rainbow experience to happen we need sunshine, raindrops, and a spectator. It is not that the sun and the raindrops cease to exist if there is no one there to see them. But unless someone is present at a particular point no colored arch can appear. The rainbow is hence a process requiring various elements, one of which happens to be an instrument of sense perception. It doesn’t exist whole and separate in the world nor does it exist as an acquired image in the head separated from what is perceived; rather, consciousness is spread between sunlight, raindrops, and visual cortex, creating a unique, transitory new whole, the rainbow experience. Or again: the viewer doesn’t see the world; he is part of a world process.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
Post Reply