Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:37 pm Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:34 pm
[...] the breath is a tactile kasina that can lead no higher than entrance into the fourth
I still don't understand how if one has the 1st jhāna via the colour kasiṇa they can also experience the 5 senses?
Not totally relevant to your response to the above, but as I'm still working on substantiating all of the post from a few days ago with actual quotes people can read themselves, I found this amidst my notes:
(Ven Miàojìng in commentary to T1917 六妙法門)
i. Four types of breath
The methods of counting and following the breath uses the breath as the mental object of meditation. Breath is the air drawn into and sent out of our lungs, that is, inhalation and exhalation. There are four types of breath: 1) outgoing breath, 2) inner-outgoing breath, 3) incoming breath, and 4) inner-incoming breath. The outgoing breath goes out from the abdomen to the nostril, directing the inner air out of the body. When exhaling, the air is exhaled naturally without intentional control. At the end of each exhalation, there is a pause before next inhalation, when the air is neither going out nor coming in. This brief pause before the incoming breath starts is called the inner-outgoing breath. After that, the incoming breath directs the air into our body, from the nostril all the way to the abdomen. The inhalation lasts a while, then there is a brief pause before the air is exhaled again; this brief moment wherein the air is neither coming in nor going out is called the inner-incoming breath.
People who do not meditate may not notice this process but at least can know the outgoing and incoming breaths, yet rarely aware of the other two. However, an experienced meditation practitioner knows the existence of these four types of breath. Furthermore, his inner-incoming breath and inner-outgoing breath will gradually be lengthened with time. For old people, inner-outgoing breath are longer than the other three breaths and the opposite is true for the children. According to the Chinese medical theory, this is because old people have weak kidneys. When the inner-incoming breath reaches the kidney, it is not taken in; thus the inner-incoming breath becomes shorter. For children, they have strong kidneys, so their inner-incoming breath is longer. The above situation only applies to people who do not meditate in general since it is not necessarily true for diligent practitioners. They can advance in age but the breathing patterns may gradually be improved and not only the inner-outgoing breath is long, the other three types of breaths will be prolonged as well.
ii. Methods of Counting
Counting uses breath as the meditation object. It counts the number of exhales and inhales. There are numerous ways of counting and it is up to individual preference to count the outgoing breath, inner-outgoing breath, incoming breath, or inner-incoming breath. Although one can count both incoming and outgoing breaths, he will be busy with counting then, since the time interval is rather short between each type of breath. Therefore, it is better to concentrate in counting just one type of breath, for instance, only the outgoing breath is counted and not the other three, for one will have a certain leisure between two counts. The count starts from one and ends in ten, then repeat again and again in a one-to-ten cycle.
There are some varieties in the counting method. You can first count one, two and three silently, and then rest to sense the following three rounds of inhalation and exhalation. Resume counting four, five, and six, and then rest again to sense the next three rounds of inhalation and exhalation. Pick up counting seven, eight, nine and ten, which is then followed by observing the next four rounds of breaths without counting. The benefit of this method is to allow our mind to rest quiet and still in such moments. Another alternative way is that you can count one then skip two and three, count four and skip five and six, then count seven but not eight, nine and ten. This way of counting allows a longer interval of quietness.
By this method of counting, one may reach different levels of meditative concentration, from the Concentration of the Desire Realm, the Access Concentration, up to the Third Dhyana-concentration. Including and up to the Third Dhyana-concentration, inhalation and exhalation are still noticeable. In the Fourth Dhyana-concentration there will be no more inhalation or exhalation.
I don't know what the translator is rendering as "access concentration." This is from a commentary on the Six Subtle Dharma Gates
that I was reading in 2018. It used to be housed on the Internet here, http://fayun.org/index.php?p=issue12-22
, but that link is dead, so I don't know where to find it anymore to generate a better citation. I'm not even sure if the certain Ven Miàojìng who wrote it is medieval, contemporary, and of the two contemporary, I don't know if he is the one still alive or the one who died in 2003.
I also found this in my old papers. This is from when I was really into looking at the Dhyanasutras. This one seems to have 觀 as its own meditation that is performed either "in," in the sense of "during," or "after" dhyanic samadhi. The text is not clear:
(T616.288c2 禪法要解 commentary to Dhyānasūtra T613)
After attaining the first dhyāna, he is mindful of the original practice, (which is) the gateway of the path, or else he has a different object, such as the samādhi of remembrance of the Buddha, remembrance of the impure, loving-kindness, vipaśyanā, etc.
This is mostly resting on this particular translation of 觀, however the activities of buddhānusmṛti, aśubhānusmṛti, etc., cannot be performed "in dhyāna" according to how the Southern Tradition explains it. I will need to look further to see if this dhyānasūtra is specifying these various activities as performed "in" dhyāna. Ambiguously, this seems to be the case, but the text could also presume that you need to come out of the dhyāna before engaging in vipaśyanā. 等 is a grammatical particle indicating plurality that, when used at the end of a sentence, has a sense nearly identical to "etc."
Also this, the context here is the contemplation of the bones of the dead, referring to entry into the first dhyāna (the section to do with the second onward starts further down at 275c6 with "復次初禪二禪中[...]")
(T614.272a20 坐禪三昧經 "Seated Meditation Dhyānasūtra")
If the mind for a long time dwells there [on the white bones], the dharmas of the dhyāna will come to be. When the dhyāna is obtained, there are three signs of this. The physical body feels bliss, relaxation, and comfort. The white bones stream light, appearing as if they were white jade. The mind attains a calm abiding.
This idea of "luminous dhyāna" or "bright dhyāna," where objects like bones etc. are made brilliant, sanctified, illuminated, sometimes very literally, is actually closer to what I am familiar with from "in the world of flesh" instruction in meditation as opposed to online. "The white bones glow," "the rivers stream with light," "the trees shine," etc. they say, though not necessarily to me. I personally am agnostic towards these more incredible claims concerning reality experienced by the saints. Maybe it really glows, maybe it "glows" in the same way that the "luminous mind" is "luminous," which is to say "not actually shining." Who knows?
I don't know how this squares with the idea of jhanas as visionless:
(Venerable Revata in an essay on the Rejection of Abhidhamma)
The Buddha said in the Abhidhamma that this whole world is made up of very small particles. Where did the Buddha say this? In the Abhidhamma. When you practically engage in four elements meditation, at a certain time you will break your body down into very small particles. If you pay attention with four elements to living and non-living things, both internally and externally, you will see that everything around you is just tiny particles. The Buddha said there is no man, there is no woman. There are no living or non-living things. There are only very small particles. The Buddha said that, to be able to see them, you need to practice four elements meditation. When you practice four elements meditation, you will develop concentration. When you develop concentration, your body will emit light. If you continue discerning four elements in your whole body, it becomes a block of bright light, you will need to break it down into its components. You will break the block of light down into very tiny particles. At that time, you will agree with the Buddha. You will not argue with the Buddha.
When Ven Revata talks about the body emitting light when one has developed concentration, is he talking about your everyday walking around experience post-jhana? He can't be talking about he experience of doing these things in jhana, because you can't AFAIK according to the Theravadin mainstream.
I was not aware that Theravadins thought that sensory experience dropped out at the first dhyāna and was also unaware that "access concentration" involved the appearance of a particular nimitta, the "countersign," comparable to a constellation of stars. There is no "countersign" in the anāgamya that I am familiar with.