What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?
I have just started reading Vimuttimaga today. I like to know the opinion of people who have read both.
http://urbandharma.org/pdf1/Path_of_Fre ... imagga.pdf
What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?
What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
- Lucas Oliveira
- Posts: 1898
- Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:07 pm
Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?
Vimuttimagga is the oldest ..
So it is closer to the Canon in Pali.
and so it can be more reliable.
So it is closer to the Canon in Pali.
and so it can be more reliable.
Relationship to the Visuddhimagga
The Vimuttimagga bears a striking similarity to the Visuddhimagga by Buddhagosa, and it is highly probable that it had an influence on Buddhagosa.[5] While the Visuddhimagga is a much longer work, both texts differ on several points. According to Bhikkhu Analayo, the Chinese version of the Vimuttimagga states that ascetic practices (dhutanga) can be unwholesome and wholesome while the Visuddhimagga denies that they can be unwholesome, although he notes that the Tibetan Vimuktimārga classifies ascetic practices as "wholesome".[6] A similar difference can be seen with regards to concentration (samādhi) which the Vimuttimagga states can be wholesome or unwholesome (micchā samādhi/邪定) while the Visuddhimagga disagrees that it can be unwholesome.[7] Another major difference is in the scheme of the progress of insight, which the Vimuttimagga arranges based on the four noble truths and the Visuddhimagga arranges based on the seven purifications which stem from the Rathavinīta-sutta.[8]
Minor differences can also be seen in the particular schemes of practice. Upatissa gives four categories of Śīla while Buddhagosa gives five. Upatissa gives four ways of cultivating Anapanasati, while Buddhagosa gives eight.[5] In addition, the Visuddhimagga identifies forty subjects of meditation (kammatthana) while the Vimuttimagga identifies thirty-eight.[9]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vimuttimagga
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br
http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/
http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/
- confusedlayman
- Posts: 6258
- Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
- Location: Human Realm (as of now)
Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?
vimutimagga easy to follow but visudhimagga some points are experimentally proven in my life.. both are true but if u want book with less page go with vimutimagga ..SarathW wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:27 pm What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?
I have just started reading Vimuttimaga today. I like to know the opinion of people who have read both.
http://urbandharma.org/pdf1/Path_of_Fre ... imagga.pdf
both are true in my opinion and both can be reliable because they both were spoken from personal experience
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
- Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
- Posts: 2179
- Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:06 pm
Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?
- Comparatively, Vissudhimagga is more beneficial:
- being more matured
- encompassing pinnacle of accrued wisdom of great minds in lineage of the Buddha, not limited to the the wisdom surrounding Venerable Upatissa's time.
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
- Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
V. Nanananda
𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
- Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
V. Buddhādasa
Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?
Thanks.Lucas Oliveira wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 2:40 pm Vimuttimagga is the oldest ..
So it is closer to the Canon in Pali.
and so it can be more reliable.
Relationship to the Visuddhimagga
The Vimuttimagga bears a striking similarity to the Visuddhimagga by Buddhagosa, and it is highly probable that it had an influence on Buddhagosa.[5] While the Visuddhimagga is a much longer work, both texts differ on several points. According to Bhikkhu Analayo, the Chinese version of the Vimuttimagga states that ascetic practices (dhutanga) can be unwholesome and wholesome while the Visuddhimagga denies that they can be unwholesome, although he notes that the Tibetan Vimuktimārga classifies ascetic practices as "wholesome".[6] A similar difference can be seen with regards to concentration (samādhi) which the Vimuttimagga states can be wholesome or unwholesome (micchā samādhi/邪定) while the Visuddhimagga disagrees that it can be unwholesome.[7] Another major difference is in the scheme of the progress of insight, which the Vimuttimagga arranges based on the four noble truths and the Visuddhimagga arranges based on the seven purifications which stem from the Rathavinīta-sutta.[8]
Minor differences can also be seen in the particular schemes of practice. Upatissa gives four categories of Śīla while Buddhagosa gives five. Upatissa gives four ways of cultivating Anapanasati, while Buddhagosa gives eight.[5] In addition, the Visuddhimagga identifies forty subjects of meditation (kammatthana) while the Vimuttimagga identifies thirty-eight.[9]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vimuttimagga
It is surprising why Buddhagosha could not differentiate the wrong concentration and the right concentration also the drawback of Dutanga.
Perhaps he was influenced by Hinduism or did not want to upset his Hindu friends.
What are the additional two meditation objects in Visuddhimagga?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
- Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
- Posts: 2179
- Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:06 pm
Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?
https://store.pariyatti.org/Vimuttimagg ... _2579.htmlThis comparative study explores the relation between the Vimuttimagga and Visuddhimagga, the Path of Freedom and the Path of Purification, both classical meditation manuals of the Theravada tradition.The Vimuttimagga, extant as a whole only in a Chinese translation, and partially in Tibetan quotations, is generally regarded as the predecessor of the Visuddhimagga. Although both manuals are Abhidhammic in style, the Vimuttimagga is more practical and concise whereas the Visuddhimagga is more scholarly and elaborate. This study, first published in 1937, is for those who would like to study the similarities and differences between the two works.
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
- Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
V. Nanananda
𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
- Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
V. Buddhādasa
Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?
Visuddhimagga is intellectually more mature, better structured and more consistent which of course refers to the English translations. So the drawback of Vimuttimagga might partly be the fault of the translator.
Having said that this has nothing to do with reliability which like the mentioned advantages of Visuddhimagga is a 'personal experience', too.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?
If you read the introductory section to Vimt., it gives you a pretty good idea of the differences between Vism. and Vimt.
Vimt. is practical and concise, meant for people seeking nirvana.
Vism. is compiled with scholarly detail [of questionable value], by non meditators who go on long winded meandering without giving proper guidance on when there are contradictory positions presented, which one is reliable, which one should be followed. It enjoys greater popularity because it's adopted by the late Theravada party, and also has a 'bigger is better' fallacy. The book is much bigger and thicker and it sounds complicated and impressive therefore it must be better and true and correct.
Unfortunately most end users lack the ability and qualifications to sort out what's true and what's false.
Vimt. is practical and concise, meant for people seeking nirvana.
Vism. is compiled with scholarly detail [of questionable value], by non meditators who go on long winded meandering without giving proper guidance on when there are contradictory positions presented, which one is reliable, which one should be followed. It enjoys greater popularity because it's adopted by the late Theravada party, and also has a 'bigger is better' fallacy. The book is much bigger and thicker and it sounds complicated and impressive therefore it must be better and true and correct.
Unfortunately most end users lack the ability and qualifications to sort out what's true and what's false.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
www.audtip.org/audtip: Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?
And you know this, how?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?
Unfortunately one of the passages of Vimuttimagga affects it's reliability over all the other arguments:
"When you meet a person belongs to a low caste while on pindapata, cover the bowl with your hand"
Above caste discrimination (Vimuttimagga) indicates more influence from Hinduism over all the other influences (if any) in Visuddhimagga
Anyway worth considering more observations like below, or more, if you have any ...
confusedlayman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 6:11 pm vimutimagga easy to follow but visudhimagga some points are experimentally proven in my life..
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 6:48 pm Comparatively, Vissudhimagga is more beneficial
Last edited by Eko Care on Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?
That doesn’t logically follow.Eko Care wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:16 pm
Unfortunately one of the passages of Vimuttimagga affects it's reliability over all the other arguments:
"When you meet a person belongs to a low caste while on pindapata, cover the bowl with your hand"
Above caste discrimination indicates more influence from Hinduism over all the other arguments.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?
What did you mean by that?Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:24 pmThat doesn’t logically follow.Eko Care wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:16 pm Unfortunately one of the passages of Vimuttimagga affects it's reliability over all the other arguments:
"When you meet a person belongs to a low caste while on pindapata, cover the bowl with your hand"
Above caste discrimination indicates more influence from Hinduism over all the other arguments.
Hinduism has higher caste discrimination.
- If there are any influence from Hinduism can be seen in Visuddhimagga, ->> they can't be seen opposed to the Dhamma.
- But the influence from Hinduism shown by the above statement of Vimuttimagga, ->> can be seen in a direct opposition to the Dhamma.
1. The influence that is still withing the frame of Dhamma ?
2. or The influence that is powerful up to the level of transgressing the frame of Dhamma ?
Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?
One of its arguments being wrong doesn’t invalidate all of its other arguments.Eko Care wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:46 pmWhat did you mean by that?Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:24 pmThat doesn’t logically follow.Eko Care wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:16 pm Unfortunately one of the passages of Vimuttimagga affects it's reliability over all the other arguments:
"When you meet a person belongs to a low caste while on pindapata, cover the bowl with your hand"
Above caste discrimination indicates more influence from Hinduism over all the other arguments.
Hinduism has higher caste discrimination.
- If there are any influence from Hinduism can be seen in Visuddhimagga, ->> they can't be seen opposed to the Dhamma.
So, what is higher influence?
- But the influence from Hinduism shown by the above statement of Vimuttimagga, ->> can be seen in a direct opposition to the Dhamma.
1. The influence that is still withing the frame of Dhamma ?
2. or The influence that is powerful up to the level of transgressing the frame of Dhamma ?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?
Yes, but there are no any such wrong passages can be found in Visuddhimagga.
The availability of direct Adhamma in a certain book suggest that the author's understanding of Dhamma is wrong.
(At least not up to the level of teaching meditaion).
Isn't it?
(Nevertheless the author might possess other good aspects of Dhamma)