'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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salayatananirodha
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Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

Post by salayatananirodha »

robertk wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:21 amThere is some controversy as to what other substances would be included in this factor in line with the Great Standards. Since the Canon repeatedly criticizes alcohol on the grounds that it destroys one's sense of shame, weakens one's discernment, and can put one into a stupor -- as happened to Ven. Sagata -- it seems reasonable to extend this rule to other intoxicants, narcotics, and hallucinogens as well. Thus things like marijuana, hashish, heroin, cocaine, and LSD would fulfill this factor. Coffee, tea, tobacco, and betel do not have this effect, though, so there is no reason to include them here....

Effort. The Vibhanga defines drinking as taking even as little as the tip of a blade of grass. Thus taking a small glass of wine, even though it might not be enough to make one drunk, would be more than enough to fulfill this factor.
ok
literally whats the difference between cocaine and tea?
theyre both stimulants; one is illegal, one is legal
never mind that millions and millions of people are legally prescribed uppers like adderall
and also psychotropic medications (drugs)
in my personal experience gabapentin makes me say things i would not normally say, and it honestly reminds me of being drunk, but its prescribed for pain.
xanax will make you feel really happy too and change your behavior
putting a doctor in between you and a drug doesnt automatically make it more legitimate
but also i dont know that the substances listed in your document all induce destruction of shame, weakening of discernment, and putting one into a stupor
opiate pain relievers dont induce those things, do they?

then, if intent is the deciding factor, why would it be blameworthy to consume any alcohol for any reason?
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


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Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings salayatananirodha,

A good start would be not to jumble up the five precepts for laypeople and the bhikkhu pāṭimokkha.

What Robert posted was largely about pāṭimokkha offenses and application of the great standards, rather than lay precept breaches.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view?" (SN 5.10)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

Post by salayatananirodha »

Dhammanando wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:18 am
salayatananirodha wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:56 pm there was a forum member on here who i thought made a good argument: viewtopic.php?p=37437#p37437
in summary, it's the negligence from the intoxicants that is to be abstained from rather than the substances themselves.
Dhammanando wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:17 am
Adam: I’ve heard two interpretations of the precept of “abstaining from alcohol.” Basically: “Don’t drink at all.” and the other interpretation of “drink, but don’t get drunk.”
I’m just curious what the texts say,
...
“I undertake the rule of training to abstain from liquor, wine, and intoxicants, which are the basis of negligence.”
...
I don’t know how Nyanamoli himself arrived at this rendering, but I would do so like this:...
A. “I undertake the rule of training [that is] abstinence from the basis of negligence, [consisting in] intoxicating liquors and intoxicating wines.”
B. “I undertake the rule of training [that is] abstinence from the basis of negligence, [consisting in] liquors that are intoxicants and wines that are intoxicants.”
C. “I undertake the rule of training [that is] abstinence from the basis of negligence, [consisting in] liquors, wines and intoxicants.”

Nyanamoli’s translation is then simply a more idiomatic rendering of C.

Translated in this way, clearly the precept is to be interpreted as involving abstinence from alcohol itself, and not the state of intoxication and negligence to which alcohol leads.

And so we have two grammatically feasible parsings of the precept, mine and Kåre’s, which issue in conflicting interpretations. That being so, clearly grammatical analysis by itself is not adequate to demonstrate the precept’s meaning. ...

7. Not all consumption of alcohol is sufficient to give rise to the akusala kammapa.thas.
8. Therefore the fifth precept enjoins only abstention from consuming excessive alcohol, i.e., alcohol in such a quantity that the akusala kammapa.thas may reasonably be expected to result.

The Tibetan argument wouldn’t have been accepted by the Theravadin commentators, although they would have differed over the precise grounds for rejecting it. Buddhaghosa and Dhammapaala would have accepted points 1-6, but rejected 7-8, since it was their view that even the minutest quantity of alcohol leads at least to mental akusala. Buddhadatta and Sumangalasaami would have rejected premise 2, since it was their view that consuming alcohol is included in the akusala kammapa.thas under misconduct in sense-pleasures.
viewtopic.php?p=37595#p37595
Bhante :anjali:
So, you're saying that the precept itself says to abstain from drinks, rather than intoxication resulting from drinks, but you also say that it means excessive drinking only?
This would not be consistent with Ud 5.5, uposatha sutta. And the words there simply dont say 'excessive'. And I appreciate your knowledge of pali and also your general wisdom but 1) looks like two competing interpretations of grammar, which is not the only basis for my position, and 2) i recall disagreeing with you as it pertains to the karaniya metta sutta (i think that mettā is much like the love a mother has for her son) (perhaps i misunderstood you?) but yeah i do think youre really intelligent so i dont want to doubt you with a faulty basis
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


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Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

Post by salayatananirodha »

retrofuturist wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:48 am Greetings salayatananirodha,

A good start would be not to jumble up the five precepts for laypeople and the bhikkhu pāṭimokkha.

What Robert posted was largely about pāṭimokkha offenses and application of the great standards, rather than lay precept breaches.

Metta,
Paul. :)
of course
but the vinaya does shed some light on things in the suttas, i believe. they're not exclusive to each other
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


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Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
salayatananirodha wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:19 am but the vinaya does shed some light on things in the suttas, i believe. they're not exclusive to each other
Yes, although the Vinaya (as you would know from many of the back-stories) is as much about appearances and reducing the potential for suspicion and/or communal drama, as it is something that in and of itself helps and supports practice. For the bhikkhu it is the absence of such drama which is the support in many cases, whereas a lay person having a glass of wine with dinner would not be cause for scandal or finger pointing.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view?" (SN 5.10)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

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salayatananirodha wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:41 am ok
literally whats the difference between cocaine and tea?
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Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

Post by Dhammanando »

salayatananirodha wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:15 am but you also say that it means excessive drinking only?
No, I think you've misread me. The opinion that moderate consumption of alcohol doesn't break the fifth precept is what I was arguing against. But I had to state the view in question before rejecting it.
salayatananirodha wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:15 am i recall disagreeing with you as it pertains to the karaniya metta sutta (i think that mettā is much like the love a mother has for her son) (perhaps i misunderstood you?)
Actually I don't dispute that this is what mettā is like. The disagreement is about whether the Mettasutta actually says this. I agree with Ajahn Thanissaro (a very rare occurrence!) that this is an incorrect reading of the mother and child simile.
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
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Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

Post by robertk »

THE FIRST BOOK OF
THE MINOR COLLECTION
(KHUDDAKANIKÄYA)
I undertake the training precept of abstention from any
opportunity for negligence due to liquor, wine, and besotting drink.
Shrinking, abstinence, from evil,
From besotting drink refraining,
Diligence in True Ideals:
This is a supreme good omen
and from Commentary
Any opportunity for negligence due to liquor, urine and besotting
drink: here as to ' liquor ', there are five kinds of liquor: flour liquor,
cake liquor, rice liquor, that containing yeast, and that mixed with
condiments. Also ' wine ' is of five kinds: flower wine, fruit wine,
sugar wine, honey wine, and that mixed with condiments (Vin. iv.
110). Both these are * besotting' (majja) in the sense of causing
intoxication (madantya); or alternatively, whatever else there is
that causes intoxication, by drinking which one becomes mad (matta)
and negligent (pamatta) is called ' besotting \ The ' opportunity
for negligence' (pamädatthäna) is the choice by which one drinks,
swallows. That is so called since it is the cause for the [subsequent]
vanity (madness) and negligence (mada-ppamäda); consequently,
what should be understood as the * opportunity for negligence ' is the
choice in swallowing the liquor, wine or besotting drink, as intent to
swallow, which occurs in the body door
unlike killing-breathing-
things, etc., [whose blamability varies,] the opportunity-fornegligence-
due-to-liquor-wine-and-besotting-drink is always greatly
blamable. Why? Because it obstructs the Noble Ones* True Idea
by inducing even madness in a human being
. That is how the
explanation should be known by blamability.
46. The fruits of abstention from the opportunity-for-negligencedue-
to-liquor-wine-and-besotting-drink are such things as swift
recognition of past, future and present tasks to be done, constant
establishment of mindfulness, freedom from madness, possession of
knowledge, non-procrastination, non-stupidity, non-drivellingness,
non-intoxication, non-negligence, non-confusion, non-timorousness,
non-presumption, unenviousness, truthfulness, freedom from
malicious and harsh speech and from gossip, freedom from dullness
both night and day, gratitude, gratefulness, unavariciousness,
liberality, virtuousness, rectitude, unangriness, possession of
conscience, possession of shame, rectitude of view, great understanding,
wisdom, learnedness, skill in [distinguishing] good from
harm, and so on
.

153. From besotting drink refraining (majjapänä ca samyamo): this
designates abstention from any opportunity for negligence (intoxication)
due to wine, liquor and besotting drink, which has already been
described (Ch. ii, § 15). This refraining from besotting drink is
called a good omen because one who drinks besotting drinks does not
know either a meaning or an idea; he ill-treats his mother and his
father and Enlightened Ones and Hermit Enlightened Ones and
Perfect Ones' disciples; here and now he encounters censure, in his
next rebirth, an unhappy destination, and in the life after that,
madness; but when a man refrains from besotting drink, he achieves
both immunity from those defects and excellence in those special
qualities that are their opposites. So that, it should be understood,
is why it is called a good omen.
they work the welfare
of their own people by support of kin and the welfare of other people
by unexceptionable actions, till, by avoiding through abstinence
from evil the hurting of others and by refraining from besotting
drink the hurting of themselves, they increase the profitable side by
diligence in True Ideals
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Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

Post by salayatananirodha »

Dhammanando wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:22 am
salayatananirodha wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:15 am but you also say that it means excessive drinking only?
No, I think you've misread me. The opinion that moderate consumption of alcohol doesn't break the fifth precept is what I was arguing against. But I had to state the view in question before rejecting it.
oh, ok. i misread you. my mistake
salayatananirodha wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:15 am i recall disagreeing with you as it pertains to the karaniya metta sutta (i think that mettā is much like the love a mother has for her son) (perhaps i misunderstood you?)
Actually I don't dispute that this is what mettā is like. The disagreement is about whether the Mettasutta actually says this. I agree with Ajahn Thanissaro (a very rare occurrence!) that this is an incorrect reading of the mother and child simile.
its not common for me to agree with ajahn thanissaro either :stirthepot: it's weird for the image of a mother protecting her son with her life to be evoked that way when it could easily be interpreted as being willing to sacrifice your life for someone else. the conclusion i drew at that time was that it was a double meaning (protect your meditation and also sacrifice your self)
but ok, the important part i agree with you on, that its much like the love a mother has for her son. mettā needs to be taught like this
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


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Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

Post by robertk »

One thing that is debateable is as Salayatananirodha has noted is if it applies only to alcohol. I brought this up in Bangkok with an ex monk I know who passed the highest levèel of pali exams. According to him one of the words in the phrase indicates also any taken materiality that causes loss of mindfulness .
But sometimes the Thais rely on the established Thai translations when figuring the meaning of a word so take that as you will.
Either way,
For me things like coffee, tea and tobacco are not included. One could smoke 20 cigs a day with copius coffee and that doesn't lead to someone beating their wife -
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Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
robertk wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:25 am According to him one of the words in the phrase indicates also any taken materiality that causes loss of mindfulness .
General anaesthesia?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view?" (SN 5.10)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

Post by salayatananirodha »

robertk wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:25 am For me things like coffee, tea and tobacco are not included. One could smoke 20 cigs a day with copius coffee and that doesn't lead to someone beating their wife -
it makes me irritable, and i say things i regret
ive become terribly annoyed with the way my mom says certain things, and i will tell her and it hurts her feelings
and it makes it where i can hardly do anything after it wears off
so to me this is a basis of negligence but maybe less direct
also euphoria is deceptive
but yeah the last time i drank alcohol (four years ago) i screamed obscenities at my mom and said she wasnt my mother and it was horrible
i also did cocaine and drinking one day in 2013 and i screamed at my mom so loud the neighbors asked if they should call the police
when i did lsd in 2017 i went to the hospital because i was terrified, and then i sat with my mom and wept because i literally thought i would die (this was shortly after i quit drinking)

ok but look at jūtappamāda, right, its still got the same root there as surāmerayamajjappamādaṭṭhāna
you wouldnt put games and drinking alcohol in the same group, would you? but they are both bases of negligence
also idk if drinking alcohol necessarily causes anything except being less mindful, but its late and i drank more than half a bang over the day
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


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Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

Post by robertk »

retrofuturist wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:26 am Greetings,
robertk wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:25 am According to him one of the words in the phrase indicates also any taken materiality that causes loss of mindfulness .
General anaesthesia?

Metta,
Paul. :)
by loss of mindfulness I meant things like disrespecting Buddha , stealing etc.
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Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

Post by pitithefool »

salayatananirodha wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:24 am
Why would it not be enough? I don't think you should blame yourself for these kinds of things. How can you meditate if you're blaming yourself!

I think the idea is staying away from things that cause heedlessness right?

Heck I had to take a drug for an ear infection one time (can't remember what it was called) and I lost my sh** on it, quite frankly.

That's a medicine I will not be taking again.

Alcohol is indeed a slippery slope so I think it's best to avoid it and other things we'd call "recreational drugs" and even drugs that may cause a lapse of mindfulness.

But the devil's advocate in me wants to bring up general anaesthetics. How are we to approach those?
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Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

Post by Srilankaputra »

Virati(abstinence) is a strength of the heart. The spirit of the whole five precepts is virati, but depending on skill even a broken precept can be used to increase wisdom. imo

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