Asura realm

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form
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Asura realm

Post by form »

Is this realm sometimes categorised under another realm? Or is it a realm that exist simultaneously with another realm? I don't really remember I have read about someone in the sutta that has reborned as an asura.
rajitha7
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Re: Asura realm

Post by rajitha7 »

31 realms -> Brahma, Deva, Manushya (human), Thirisan (animal), Petha, Bhutha, Niraya.

Although clans of people (human beings) are often confused with above.

-> Sura, Asura
-> Naga, Deva, Yakka, Khubanda, Ghandharwa etc

* The Asura is a human clan. It's often confused with the Bhutha of the 31 realms.
* The Yakka is a human clan. It's often confused with the Petha of the 31 realms.
* The Deva is also a human clan. It's often confused with the Deva of the 31 realms.
* The Naga is a human clan. It's often confused with non-existent Naga of the 31 realms.

Normally, a way to differentiate is to see if a name or gender is mentioned. The fine matter beings do not have names or a gender. They are spontaneously born without requiring a mothers womb.
Unsurpassed is the Lord’s way of teaching the Dhamma concerning one’s proper moral conduct. One should be honest and faithful, without deception, chatter, hinting or belittling, not always ready to add gain to gain, but with the sense-doors guarded, moderate in food, a promoter of peace, observant, active and strenuous in effort, a meditator, mindful, with proper conversation, steady-going, resolute and sensible, not hankering after sense pleasures, but mindful and prudent. This is the unsurpassed teaching concerning a person’s proper ethical conduct. - Sampasādanīya, Dīgha Nikāya 28
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DooDoot
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Re: Asura realm

Post by DooDoot »

form wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:06 am Is this realm sometimes categorised under another realm? Or is it a realm that exist simultaneously with another realm? I don't really remember I have read about someone in the sutta that has reborned as an asura.
It appears Iti 93 is the only sutta that separates the asura realm from the rest of the deva realm.
Humankind delights in personal existence.

Unfree from the bonds of Māra
They swell the ranks of hell,
Existence in the animal realm,
Asura-demons and the sphere of ghosts.

https://suttacentral.net/iti93/en/ireland
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Alino
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Re: Asura realm

Post by Alino »

We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
rajitha7
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Re: Asura realm

Post by rajitha7 »

Quoted here.

-> "The Asuras were driven out of Thawthisa heaven for getting drunk"

The correct phrase;

-> "The Asuras were driven out of Thawthisa city for getting drunk"

Believe it or not, back in those days people divided themselves into clans who like alcohol (Asuras) and those who did not (Sura). The 2 clans quite regularly at war with each other.

The fine matter beings cannot drink or eat. They intake food a different way.

Thawthisa is a city home of Sakka. The Sakka belonged to the Sura clan. The Asuras were driven out of Thawthisa. Thawthisa is not a heaven. It's a city of normal people.
Unsurpassed is the Lord’s way of teaching the Dhamma concerning one’s proper moral conduct. One should be honest and faithful, without deception, chatter, hinting or belittling, not always ready to add gain to gain, but with the sense-doors guarded, moderate in food, a promoter of peace, observant, active and strenuous in effort, a meditator, mindful, with proper conversation, steady-going, resolute and sensible, not hankering after sense pleasures, but mindful and prudent. This is the unsurpassed teaching concerning a person’s proper ethical conduct. - Sampasādanīya, Dīgha Nikāya 28
form
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Re: Asura realm

Post by form »

So asura realm is a deva realm?
rajitha7
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Re: Asura realm

Post by rajitha7 »

No - this does not belong in 31 realms.

The Asura (drunkards) is a clan of human beings. The Sura (teetotaller), the opposition are also a clan of people.

The Sakka is both a Deva and also a member of the Sura clan.
Unsurpassed is the Lord’s way of teaching the Dhamma concerning one’s proper moral conduct. One should be honest and faithful, without deception, chatter, hinting or belittling, not always ready to add gain to gain, but with the sense-doors guarded, moderate in food, a promoter of peace, observant, active and strenuous in effort, a meditator, mindful, with proper conversation, steady-going, resolute and sensible, not hankering after sense pleasures, but mindful and prudent. This is the unsurpassed teaching concerning a person’s proper ethical conduct. - Sampasādanīya, Dīgha Nikāya 28
form
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Re: Asura realm

Post by form »

rajitha7 wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:03 am No - it does not belong in 31 realms.

The Asura (drunkards) is a clan of human beings. The Sura (teetotaller), the opposition are also a clan of people.

The Sakka is both Deva and also a member of the Sura clan.
A clan? But under what realm?

So in total there are 5 or 6 realms?
form
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Re: Asura realm

Post by form »

What about Naga and yakkha?
rajitha7
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Re: Asura realm

Post by rajitha7 »

Naga, Yakka, Asura -> are all normal human beings. Refer above post.
Unsurpassed is the Lord’s way of teaching the Dhamma concerning one’s proper moral conduct. One should be honest and faithful, without deception, chatter, hinting or belittling, not always ready to add gain to gain, but with the sense-doors guarded, moderate in food, a promoter of peace, observant, active and strenuous in effort, a meditator, mindful, with proper conversation, steady-going, resolute and sensible, not hankering after sense pleasures, but mindful and prudent. This is the unsurpassed teaching concerning a person’s proper ethical conduct. - Sampasādanīya, Dīgha Nikāya 28
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Dhammanando
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Re: Asura realm

Post by Dhammanando »

rajitha7 wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:03 am
The Asura (drunkards) is a clan of human beings.
To judge from the Lokacintāsutta they must be awfully tiny humans.

:lol:
“Bhikkhus, once in the past a certain man set out from Rajagaha and went to the Sumagadha Lotus Pond, thinking: ‘I will reflect about the world.’ He then sat down on the bank of the Sumagadha Lotus Pond reflecting about the world. Then, bhikkhus, the man saw a four-division army entering a lotus stalk on the bank of the pond. Having seen this, he thought: ‘I must be mad! I must be insane! I’ve seen something that doesn’t exist in the world.’ The man returned to the city and informed a great crowd of people: ‘I must be mad, sirs! I must be insane! I’ve seen something that doesn’t exist in the world.’

“They said to him: ‘But how is it, good man, that you are mad? How are you insane? And what have you seen that doesn’t exist in the world?’

“‘Here, sirs, I left Rajagaha and approached the Sumagadha Lotus Pond … as above … I saw a four-division army entering a lotus stalk on the bank of the pond. That’s why I’m mad, that’s why I’m insane, and that’s what I’ve seen that doesn’t exist in the world.’

“‘Surely you’re mad, good man! Surely you’re insane! And what you have seen doesn’t exist in the world.’

“Nevertheless, bhikkhus, what that man saw was actually real, not unreal. Once in the past the devas and the asuras were arrayed for battle. In that battle the devas won and the asuras were defeated. In their defeat, the asuras were frightened and entered the asura city through the lotus stalk, to the bewilderment of the devas.
https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/sn56.41
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
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confusedlayman
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Re: Asura realm

Post by confusedlayman »

Dhammanando wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:26 pm
rajitha7 wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:03 am
The Asura (drunkards) is a clan of human beings.
To judge from the Lokacintāsutta they must be awfully tiny humans.

:lol:
“Bhikkhus, once in the past a certain man set out from Rajagaha and went to the Sumagadha Lotus Pond, thinking: ‘I will reflect about the world.’ He then sat down on the bank of the Sumagadha Lotus Pond reflecting about the world. Then, bhikkhus, the man saw a four-division army entering a lotus stalk on the bank of the pond. Having seen this, he thought: ‘I must be mad! I must be insane! I’ve seen something that doesn’t exist in the world.’ The man returned to the city and informed a great crowd of people: ‘I must be mad, sirs! I must be insane! I’ve seen something that doesn’t exist in the world.’

“They said to him: ‘But how is it, good man, that you are mad? How are you insane? And what have you seen that doesn’t exist in the world?’

“‘Here, sirs, I left Rajagaha and approached the Sumagadha Lotus Pond … as above … I saw a four-division army entering a lotus stalk on the bank of the pond. That’s why I’m mad, that’s why I’m insane, and that’s what I’ve seen that doesn’t exist in the world.’

“‘Surely you’re mad, good man! Surely you’re insane! And what you have seen doesn’t exist in the world.’

“Nevertheless, bhikkhus, what that man saw was actually real, not unreal. Once in the past the devas and the asuras were arrayed for battle. In that battle the devas won and the asuras were defeated. In their defeat, the asuras were frightened and entered the asura city through the lotus stalk, to the bewilderment of the devas.
https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/sn56.41
Lotus stalk? This is crazy to understand for me...
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
rajitha7
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Re: Asura realm

Post by rajitha7 »

Dhammanando wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:26 pm
rajitha7 wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:03 am
The Asura (drunkards) is a clan of human beings.
To judge from the Lokacintāsutta they must be awfully tiny humans.

:lol:
“Nevertheless, bhikkhus, what that man saw was actually real, not unreal. Once in the past the devas and the asuras were arrayed for battle. In that battle the devas won and the asuras were defeated. In their defeat, the asuras were frightened and entered the asura city through the lotus stalk, to the bewilderment of the devas.
https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/sn56.41
Well, living beings are born Deva because there is no hatred in their mindset. So going to war would be something that is next to impossible for a Deva.

Only humans are capable of war. So it's a strange translation.
Unsurpassed is the Lord’s way of teaching the Dhamma concerning one’s proper moral conduct. One should be honest and faithful, without deception, chatter, hinting or belittling, not always ready to add gain to gain, but with the sense-doors guarded, moderate in food, a promoter of peace, observant, active and strenuous in effort, a meditator, mindful, with proper conversation, steady-going, resolute and sensible, not hankering after sense pleasures, but mindful and prudent. This is the unsurpassed teaching concerning a person’s proper ethical conduct. - Sampasādanīya, Dīgha Nikāya 28
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Dhammanando
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Re: Asura realm

Post by Dhammanando »

rajitha7 wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:51 pm Well, living beings are born Deva because there is no hatred in their mindset. So going to war would be something that is next to impossible for a Deva.

Only humans are capable of war. So it's a strange translation.
It's a perfectly sound translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi. Moreover, the suttas are full of allusions to past wars between devas and asuras. For the references see the entry for "asura" in Malalasekera's dictionary:

http://aimwell.org/DPPN/asura.html

Now there is actually a type of human whom the Buddha calls an asura, but it's not a tribe of people.
Asura Sutta

“Mendicants, these four people are found in the world. What four?

1. A demon (asura) surrounded by demons,
2. a demon surrounded by gods,
3. a god surrounded by demons, and
4. a god surrounded by gods.

And how is a person a demon surrounded by demons? It’s when a person is unethical, of bad character, and their followers are the same. That’s how a person is a demon surrounded by demons.

And how is a person a demon surrounded by gods? It’s when a person is unethical, of bad character, but their followers are ethical, of good character. That’s how a person is a demon surrounded by gods.

And how is a person a god surrounded by demons? It’s when a person is ethical, of good character, but their followers are unethical, of bad character. That’s how a person is a god surrounded by demons.

And how is a person a god surrounded by gods? It’s when a person is ethical, of good character, and their followers are the same. That’s how a person is a god surrounded by gods.

These are the four people found in the world.'


https://suttacentral.net/an4.91/en/sujato
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
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Dhammanando
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Re: Asura realm

Post by Dhammanando »

rajitha7 wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:51 pm Well, living beings are born Deva because there is no hatred in their mindset. So going to war would be something that is next to impossible for a Deva.
That's true of brahmās but not of sense-sphere devas. There are many accounts of the latter getting angry.

From the Vinaya Pitaka:
Origin story
At one time the Buddha was staying at Āḷavī at the Aggāḷava Shrine. At that time the monks at Āḷavī were doing building work. And they cut down trees and had them cut down. Then, when a certain monk was cutting down a tree, the deity that lived in it said to him, “Venerable, don’t cut down our dwelling because you want to build a dwelling for yourself.” Not taking any heed, he just cut it down, and he hurt the arm of that deity’s child. That deity thought, “Perhaps I should just kill this monk?” But then it reconsidered, “It wouldn’t be appropriate for me to just kill this monk. Why don’t I instead tell the Buddha about this matter?” And it approached the Buddha and told him what had happened.

“Well done, deity! It’s good that you didn’t kill that monk. If you had killed that monk today, you would have made much demerit. The tree in such-and-such a spot is empty; take that as your dwelling.”
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
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