Cetanahan bhikkave kamman vadami?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SarathW
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Cetanahan bhikkave kamman vadami?

Post by SarathW »

“Cetanahan bhikkave kamman vadami cetaitva kamman karoti kayena vacaya manasa”
Does above mean:
1) I can create a bad Kamma by merely thinking about it? For instance, I can think of killing someone but physically did not kill.
2) I can create a good Kamma by merely thinking about it? For instance, I am thinking of giving but I never give physically.
Or:
Is this to safeguard the unintentional action ours. For instance, I can kill an ant unintentionally when I walk on the road or I can kill a rat by trying to remove it from my house.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
pegembara
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Re: Cetanahan bhikkave kamman vadami?

Post by pegembara »

Action has consequences whether intentional or not.
Most road accidents are unintentional and the consequences are real.

Mental intentions also have consequences. Even without the physical action, your speech and demeanour will lead to results.
Mind is the chief forerunner of all evil states.
Experiences are led by and produced chiefly by the mind.
If one speaks or acts with a corrupted impure mind,
Suffering will follows just like the wheel of an ox-cart when the ox pulls.

Mind is the chief forerunner of all good states.
Experiences are led by and produced by the mind.
If one speaks or acts with a pure mind,
Happiness will follow along just like one's shadow that never departs.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
SarathW
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Re: Cetanahan bhikkave kamman vadami?

Post by SarathW »

I meant only the mental not bodily or verbal.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
justindesilva
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Re: Cetanahan bhikkave kamman vadami?

Post by justindesilva »

SarathW wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:11 pm
“Cetanahan bhikkave kamman vadami cetaitva kamman karoti kayena vacaya manasa”
Does above mean:
1) I can create a bad Kamma by merely thinking about it? For instance, I can think of killing someone but physically did not kill.
2) I can create a good Kamma by merely thinking about it? For instance, I am thinking of giving but I never give physically.
Or:
Is this to safeguard the unintentional action ours. For instance, I can kill an ant unintentionally when I walk on the road or I can kill a rat by trying to remove it from my house.
In nibbedaka sutta , it is also explained as
Bikkhus Intentiion I say is action. Having intended one does action by body speech and mind.
( Nibbedaka sutta N 6.21.9, gives a detailed
description).
Alino
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Re: Cetanahan bhikkave kamman vadami?

Post by Alino »

If some evil thought just pop up in your mind there is no problems - it's a past kamma result, we have to just let it go, not touch it. But if you sustainit and indulge in it mentally - you create future arising of it; or if act upon it verbally or bodily...
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Cetanahan bhikkave kamman vadami?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

There are three kinds of unwholesome mental kamma.
  1. Covetousness (abhijjhā) is longing to possess another’s property, spouse, or children. This mental kamma is strong enough to cause rebirth in the lower realms. If one strives further to attain the object of one’s desire then one will also have to steal or commit sexual misconduct. The evil effect is non-fulfilment of one’s wishes.
  2. Ill-will (byāpāda) is hatred, aversion, or prejudice. This kamma is also only mental. The effects are ugliness, many diseases, and a detestable ­nature.
  3. Wrong-view (micchā-diṭṭhi) is of many kinds, but in essence all wrong-views deny the law of dependent origination (paṭiccasamuppāda), or cause and effect (kamma). The effects are base attach­ment, lack of wisdom, dullness, chronic diseases, and blameworthy ideas.
Causing death unintentionally through negligence is blameworthy, but it is not the kamma of killing living-beings that breaks the first precept.

A Note from the Vinaya Commentary (cited from the Buddhist Monastic Code)
  • A bhikkhu with a grudge against A decides to ambush him. He sees B coming down the road and, mistaking him for A, shoots him dead on the spot. Since his intention was to kill the person he was aiming at, he incurs a Pārājika. We can call this a case of mistaken identity. In cases of this sort, whether the “right” or the “wrong” person dies is of no consequence to the offence.
  • If, however, the bhikkhu is a poor shot, takes aim at B but misses him, and inadvertently kills C instead, he does not incur a Pārājika, for he did not intend to kill C during any part of his action. His only penalties are the Dukkaṭas he incurs while preparing for B’s murder.
The law in many jurisdictions may be different to the Vinaya rule, where intention is paramount.
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SarathW
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Re: Cetanahan bhikkave kamman vadami?

Post by SarathW »

If, however, the bhikkhu is a poor shot, takes aim at B but misses him, and inadvertently kills C instead, he does not incur a Pārājika, for he did not intend to kill C during any part of his action. His only penalties are the Dukkaṭas he incurs while preparing for B’s murder.
This example confirms that intention to kill alone does not break the first precept.
However, it is a bad Kamma.
On that basis, I would say even if someone has the thought of giving but does not have the opportunity to give also make a good Kamma.

Am I right?
Are Cetana means mental Kamma?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
asahi
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Re: Cetanahan bhikkave kamman vadami?

Post by asahi »

Alino wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:56 am If some evil thought just pop up in your mind there is no problems - it's a past kamma result, we have to just let it go, not touch it. But if you sustainit and indulge in it mentally - you create future arising of it; or if act upon it verbally or bodily...
Hi do you mind give an example or two ? Say if you look at pretty girls and craves to have them as girl friend ?
Last edited by asahi on Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
SarathW
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Re: Cetanahan bhikkave kamman vadami?

Post by SarathW »

Alino wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:56 am If some evil thought just pop up in your mind there is no problems - it's a past kamma result, we have to just let it go, not touch it. But if you sustainit and indulge in it mentally - you create future arising of it; or if act upon it verbally or bodily...
Your statement seems incorrect as per Ven. Pesala's post.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
asahi
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Re: Cetanahan bhikkave kamman vadami?

Post by asahi »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:30 am
[*]Wrong-view (micchā-diṭṭhi) is of many kinds, but in essence all wrong-views deny the law of dependent origination (paṭiccasamuppāda), or cause and effect (kamma). The effects are base attach­ment, lack of wisdom, dullness, chronic diseases, and blameworthy ideas.[/list]
Venerable , it seems many non buddhists naturally dont believe in cause n effect , yet why they appears to be wise , healthy and rich ?
SarathW
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Re: Cetanahan bhikkave kamman vadami?

Post by SarathW »

asahi wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:57 am
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:30 am
[*]Wrong-view (micchā-diṭṭhi) is of many kinds, but in essence all wrong-views deny the law of dependent origination (paṭiccasamuppāda), or cause and effect (kamma). The effects are base attach­ment, lack of wisdom, dullness, chronic diseases, and blameworthy ideas.[/list]
Venerable , it seems many nonbuddhists naturally dont believe in cause n effect , yet why they appears to be wise , healthy and rich ?
Hi Asahi
Good question but how do you measure wealth.
In dollars or Bitcoin?
:D
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
asahi
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Re: Cetanahan bhikkave kamman vadami?

Post by asahi »

SarathW wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:18 am
asahi wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:57 am
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:30 am
[*]Wrong-view (micchā-diṭṭhi) is of many kinds, but in essence all wrong-views deny the law of dependent origination (paṭiccasamuppāda), or cause and effect (kamma). The effects are base attach­ment, lack of wisdom, dullness, chronic diseases, and blameworthy ideas.[/list]
Venerable , it seems many nonbuddhists naturally dont believe in cause n effect , yet why they appears to be wise , healthy and rich ?
Hi Asahi
Good question but how do you measure wealth.
In dollars or Bitcoin?
:D
Bitcoin is totally not in my radar , i dont know what is it . Too late for me to jump in the wagon . About 60 k per unit . I thought even 1k usd is expensive to invest for me many years ago not to mention now .

:lol:
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mjaviem
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Re: Cetanahan bhikkave kamman vadami?

Post by mjaviem »

SarathW wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:52 am
Alino wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:56 am If some evil thought just pop up in your mind there is no problems - it's a past kamma result, we have to just let it go, not touch it. But if you sustainit and indulge in it mentally - you create future arising of it; or if act upon it verbally or bodily...
Your statement seems incorrect as per Ven. Pesala's post.
If your intention was killing in the first place, I don't see how it is that killing C doesn't incur in a violation of the precept. You are out with a gun aiming to kill and you kill.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
Alino
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Re: Cetanahan bhikkave kamman vadami?

Post by Alino »

asahi wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:50 am
Alino wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:56 am If some evil thought just pop up in your mind there is no problems - it's a past kamma result, we have to just let it go, not touch it. But if you sustainit and indulge in it mentally - you create future arising of it; or if act upon it verbally or bodily...
Hi do you mind give an example or two ? Say if you look at pretty girls and craves to have them as girl friend ?
SarathW wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:52 am
Alino wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:56 am If some evil thought just pop up in your mind there is no problems - it's a past kamma result, we have to just let it go, not touch it. But if you sustainit and indulge in it mentally - you create future arising of it; or if act upon it verbally or bodily...
Your statement seems incorrect as per Ven. Pesala's post.
From what I've heared from my Teachers, we can't choose to think only good thoughts. Why? Because they don't belong to us. Only we can do is to observe thoughts that are already arisen as result of past kamma, various causes and conditions.

If any unwholesome thought just pops up once - it's not a problem. If there is unwholesome thoughts that arise regularly - treatment of Right Effort is need.

If we see a beautiful girl or boy and sensual thoughts arise - if we don't indulge in it by grasping on it and developing further these thoughts; if we don't follow them by speach or action; (greed+delusion)
if we don't try to suppress them with unwholesome means (distractions of all kinds); (hatred+delusion)
but if we are fully open to that mental state, fully aware of it, and if we understand and see it as it realy is - as impermanent conditioned unliable phenomena, as not me, not mine, not myself - and let this thought to arise, endure, and cease without fueling it - its a Middle Way, way if non-greed, non-hatred and non-delusion. Kamma that lead to cessation of all kamma.

In order to develop this skill we have to train ourselves in meditation by means of letting go of mental phenomena that are not ours, not touching or destroying things that not belonging to us - and all our mental states not belong to us, if we tuch them. Its a corona virus.
Meditation, wisdom and patience (sila samadhi panna) help us to create necessary space in our minds in order to let phenomenas ceasse by themselves.

If we are diligent in that practice, unwholesome thoughts will become weaker without food, arise less often, and eventually ceasse to appear in our experiance.

Intresting illustration from Ajahn Jayasaro :
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We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
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mjaviem
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Re: Cetanahan bhikkave kamman vadami?

Post by mjaviem »

Alino wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:14 pm ...
In order to develop this skill we have to train ourselves in meditation...
What do you mean by train in meditation? What kind of meditation? How to perform it? Where and when? If I may ask.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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