Abhidhamma makes things really easy regarding interpretations of Dhamma

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
BrokenBones
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Re: Abhidhamma makes things really easy regarding interpretations of Dhamma

Post by BrokenBones »

Eko Care wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:48 am
Analysis of Truth
Monks, Sāriputta is able to declare, teach, disclose, describe, reveal, expound, and clarify the Four Noble Truths.
...
“And, Venerables, what is birth? The birth, appearance, descent, or production of those beings amidst a group of beings; the manifestation of the aggregates; the acquisition of the sense-bases – Venerables, this is called ‘birth.’

“And, Venerables, what is aging? The aging, decrepitude, broken teeth, gray hair, and wrinkled skin of those beings amidst a group of beings; the dwindling of vitality; the weakening of one‘s faculties – Venerables, this is called ‘aging.’

“And, Venerables, what is dieing? The falling, shifting away, dissolution, disappearance, mortality, and dieing of those beings from a group of beings; the completion of the lifetime; the dissolution of the aggregates; the laying-down of the body; the severance of the life-faculty – Venerables, this is called ‘dieing.’
...
“And what, Venerables, is ‘not getting what one wants is dissatisfaction’? Venerables, this kind of wish arises in a being who is subject to birth: ‘Oh, may we not be subject to birth; may birth not come to us.’ But that wish is not attainable. This is called ‘not getting what one wants is dissatisfaction.’ Venerables, this kind of wish arises in a being who is subject to aging… illness… dieing… sorrow, lamentation, pain, dejection, and anguish: ‘Oh, may we not be subject to sorrow, lamentation, pain, dejection, and anguish; may sorrow, lamentation, pain, dejection, and anguish not come to us.’ But that wish is not attainable. This is also called ‘not getting what one wants is dissatisfaction.’
Excellent synonyms... followed by the four noble truths and the eightfold path... why not post the whole sutta? Loads more synonyms... with a focus on practice... not just a list of words.
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Eko Care
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Re: Abhidhamma makes things really easy regarding interpretations of Dhamma

Post by Eko Care »

BrokenBones wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:13 am
Excellent synonyms... followed by the four noble truths and the eightfold path... why not post the whole sutta? Loads more synonyms... with a focus on practice... not just a list of words.
I bet you will not say the same regarding the below Abhidhamma.
Analysis of Truth
Therein what is birth? That which for this or that being in this or that category of beings is birth, genesis, entry, full existence, the appearance of the aggregates, the acquiring of the sense-bases. This is called birth.

Therein what is old age? That which for this or that being in this or that category of beings is old age, decrepitude, broken teeth, grey hair, wrinkled skin, the dwindling of life, decay of the faculties. This is called old age.

Therein what is death? That which for this or that being from this or that category of beings is decease, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, the completion of the life-span, the breaking up of the aggregates, the laying down of the body, the destruction of the faculty of vital principle. This is called death.

...
Therein what is, “not to get what one wishes, that also is suffering”? In beings subject to birth such a wish arises, “Well indeed if we were not subject to birth; may birth not come to us”; this indeed is not to be attained by wishing. This is, “not to get what one wishes, that also is suffering”.

In beings subject to old age. ... In beings subject to sickness. ... In beings subject to death. ... In beings subject to sorrow, lamentation, pain (physical), mental pain, despair, such a wish arises, “Well indeed if we were not subject to sorrow, lamentation , pain (physical), mental pain, despair; may sorrow, lamentation, pain (physical), mental pain, despair, not come to us”; this indeed is not to be attained by wishing. This also is, “not to get what one wishes, that also is suffering”.
Will you explain the difference between the Saccha vibhanga sutta and Saccha vibhanga in Abhidhamma?
Do you think you know better than the ancient Sangha ?
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BrokenBones
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Re: Abhidhamma makes things really easy regarding interpretations of Dhamma

Post by BrokenBones »

Eko Care wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:09 am
BrokenBones wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:13 am
Excellent synonyms... followed by the four noble truths and the eightfold path... why not post the whole sutta? Loads more synonyms... with a focus on practice... not just a list of words.
I bet you will not say the same regarding the below Abhidhamma.
Analysis of Truth
Therein what is birth? That which for this or that being in this or that category of beings is birth, genesis, entry, full existence, the appearance of the aggregates, the acquiring of the sense-bases. This is called birth.

Therein what is old age? That which for this or that being in this or that category of beings is old age, decrepitude, broken teeth, grey hair, wrinkled skin, the dwindling of life, decay of the faculties. This is called old age.

Therein what is death? That which for this or that being from this or that category of beings is decease, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, the completion of the life-span, the breaking up of the aggregates, the laying down of the body, the destruction of the faculty of vital principle. This is called death.

...
Therein what is, “not to get what one wishes, that also is suffering”? In beings subject to birth such a wish arises, “Well indeed if we were not subject to birth; may birth not come to us”; this indeed is not to be attained by wishing. This is, “not to get what one wishes, that also is suffering”.

In beings subject to old age. ... In beings subject to sickness. ... In beings subject to death. ... In beings subject to sorrow, lamentation, pain (physical), mental pain, despair, such a wish arises, “Well indeed if we were not subject to sorrow, lamentation , pain (physical), mental pain, despair; may sorrow, lamentation, pain (physical), mental pain, despair, not come to us”; this indeed is not to be attained by wishing. This also is, “not to get what one wishes, that also is suffering”.
Will you explain the difference between the Saccha vibhanga sutta and Saccha vibhanga in Abhidhamma?
Going by what you've posted... very little... you must have missed the 'how' section in that particular sutta... give it a full read... it's well worth it.
I don't think anybody is saying that there is no 'Dhamma' in the Abhidhamma... but this is not the place to discuss it.
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DooDoot
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Re: Abhidhamma makes things really easy regarding interpretations of Dhamma

Post by DooDoot »

BrokenBones wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:10 pm How does a list of synonyms help in ones practice? If 'refrain' from killing doesn't make sense when you hear it then you've got a long road ahead.
:shock:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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DooDoot
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Re: Abhidhamma makes things really easy regarding interpretations of Dhamma

Post by DooDoot »

Eko Care wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:48 am
Analysis of Truth
Monks, Sāriputta is able to declare, teach, disclose, describe, reveal, expound, and clarify the Four Noble Truths.
...
“And, Venerables, what is birth? The birth, appearance, descent, or production of those beings amidst a group of beings; the manifestation of the aggregates; the acquisition of the sense-bases – Venerables, this is called ‘birth.’

“And, Venerables, what is aging? The aging, decrepitude, broken teeth, gray hair, and wrinkled skin of those beings amidst a group of beings; the dwindling of vitality; the weakening of one‘s faculties – Venerables, this is called ‘aging.’

“And, Venerables, what is dieing? The falling, shifting away, dissolution, disappearance, mortality, and dieing of those beings from a group of beings; the completion of the lifetime; the dissolution of the aggregates; the laying-down of the body; the severance of the life-faculty – Venerables, this is called ‘dieing.’
...
“And what, Venerables, is ‘not getting what one wants is dissatisfaction’? Venerables, this kind of wish arises in a being who is subject to birth: ‘Oh, may we not be subject to birth; may birth not come to us.’ But that wish is not attainable. This is called ‘not getting what one wants is dissatisfaction.’ Venerables, this kind of wish arises in a being who is subject to aging… illness… dieing… sorrow, lamentation, pain, dejection, and anguish: ‘Oh, may we not be subject to sorrow, lamentation, pain, dejection, and anguish; may sorrow, lamentation, pain, dejection, and anguish not come to us.’ But that wish is not attainable. This is also called ‘not getting what one wants is dissatisfaction.’
The above is not Abhidhamma. The above is Sutta.
Eko Care wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:09 am Will you explain the difference between the Saccha vibhanga sutta and Saccha vibhanga in Abhidhamma?
I can. I already asked questions about the differences between Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta and Abhidhamma Paṭiccasamuppādavibhaṅga but you did not answer them.

The differences between the Saccha vibhanga sutta and Saccha vibhanga are:

1a. Sutta says dukkha samudaya is craving leading to new becoming. For suffering to arise, there must be two things: (i) craving and (ii) becoming. In sutta, craving alone does not cause suffering (MN 148) to arise because the suttas say suffering is attachment (upadana). For example, about the 2nd noble truth or arising of suffering, AN 3.61 says:
AN 3.61 wrote:"And what is the noble truth of the origination of stress?

"From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then old age & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"This is called the noble truth of the origination of stress.
1b. Abhidhamma says craving alone is the "arising" ("samudaya") of suffering.

2a. Sutta summaries all dukkha as the five aggregates subject to attachment.

2b. Abhidhamma says dukkha is:
Therein what is suffering? The remaining corruptions, the remaining unskilful dhammas, the three skilful roots that are objects of the defilements, the remaining skilful dhammas that are objects of the defilements, the resultants of skilful and unskilful dhammas that are objects of the defilements, whatever inoperative dhammas there are neither skilful nor unskilful nor the resultants of action, and all material qualities. This is called suffering.

Tattha katamaṁ dukkhaṁ? Avasesā ca kilesā, avasesā ca akusalā dhammā, tīṇi ca kusalamūlāni sāsavāni, avasesā ca sāsavā kusalā dhammā, sāsavā ca kusalākusalānaṁ dhammānaṁ vipākā, ye ca dhammā kiriyā neva kusalā nākusalā na ca kammavipākā, sabbañca rūpaṁ— idaṁ vuccati “dukkhaṁ”.

https://suttacentral.net/vb4/en/thittila
Since suttas such as MN 10 & MN 118 refer to contemplating defilments (kilesā) in cittanupassana without attachment to them, it appears according to sutta, all kilesā are not suffering.
"In this way he remains focused internally on the mind in & of itself, or externally on the mind in & of itself, or both internally & externally on the mind in & of itself. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the mind, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the mind, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the mind. Or his mindfulness that 'There is a mind' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, not clinging to anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the mind in & of itself.

MN 10
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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