Signs you will not attain enlightenment ?

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devaloka
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Signs you will not attain enlightenment ?

Post by devaloka »

Dear all I have a serious question,

What are signs you will not reach any of the four stages of enlightenment ?

My goal is enlightenment . I have this goal because I dont want to exist anymore including heavenly lifes full of happiness. To me all existing is suffering and no life in samsara is desireable. I do not want to suffer any longer.

A friend of mine who I suspect being very advanced and maybe even enlightened accidentally slipped in his words saying I wont reach any stage in this life. He felt bad about having slipped it but admitted it was sincere.

Can enlightened beings tell who will not get enlightened? What are signs that you will not reach enlightened

And if you know you will not reach it whats next? I dont care about building good karma for better next lives. I just want to cease existing all together and no goal besides that I find worthwhile in any way and nobody can convince me otherwise or gaslight me into thinking otherwise. Even if there are plenty of other things I have zero interest in any of them. I will try not to commit suicide like I have been for many (institutionalized) years as I dont want to sorrow my lovedones. But I have no idea how to fill in my life with the prospect of living beyond this life without hope in the horizon of liberation of existing or at least without a fixed number of limited lives left

Thanks

Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;
The deed is, but no doer of the deed is there;
Nibbàna is, but not the man who enters it;
The path is, but no traveler on it is seen
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one_awakening
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Re: Signs you will not attain enlightenment ?

Post by one_awakening »

You appear to be approaching enlightenment as a form of suicide. Not existing is not the goal of Buddhism.

Everyone has the potential to become enlightened and even if you don't reach it in this lifetime, Buddhism can have a very positive influence on your life. My suggestion is to let go of not wanting to exist and start practicing and just see what what flowers you can get to blossom.
Last edited by one_awakening on Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DooDoot
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Re: Signs you will not attain enlightenment ?

Post by DooDoot »

devaloka wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:13 pm What are signs that you will not reach enlightened
Obsession with self and future lives. To attain enlightenment, an absence of self-clinging & self-views is required. How will the mind be free from this 'selfing' when it keeps obsessing about "my" enlightenment and "my" future lives. In this one life it is a challenge to be free from "self-view". How much more difficult will it be of there is the belief in infinite future lives? :smile:
devaloka wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:13 pmsuicide
Death will come regardless of suicide therefore there is no need to prematurely invoke what is inevitable.
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:47 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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devaloka
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Re: Signs you will not attain enlightenment ?

Post by devaloka »

one_awakening wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:38 pm You appear to be approaching enlightenment as a form of suicide. Not existing is not the goal of Buddhism. In fact, The Buddha said craving for non existence leads to more suffering not less.

Everyone has the potential to become enlightened and even if you don't reach it in this lifetime, Buddhism can have a very positive influence on your life. My suggestion is to let go of not wanting to exist and start practicing and just see what what flowers you can get to blossom.
Thank you and I know how my post came across but Im aware suicide is not the same and that Nibbana doesnt equal non existence. I left this nuance out in the OP as at this moment I dont feel a lot of desire for nuance. I just want a straight answer whether any enlightened being besides a Buddha can know you will not reach any stage of enlightenment in this life.

Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;
The deed is, but no doer of the deed is there;
Nibbàna is, but not the man who enters it;
The path is, but no traveler on it is seen
devaloka
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Re: Signs you will not attain enlightenment ?

Post by devaloka »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:42 pm
devaloka wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:13 pm What are signs that you will not reach enlightened
Obsession with self and belief in future lives. To attain enlightenment, an absence of self-clinging & self-views is required. How will the mind be free from this 'selfing' when it keeps obsessing about "my" enlightenment and "my" future lives.
Im not talking about signs you are not enlightened. Im talking about signs and ways to know that you will not reach any stage of enlightenment in this lifetime and if an enlightened being (with exceptions of a Buddha) can know you this about you?

Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;
The deed is, but no doer of the deed is there;
Nibbàna is, but not the man who enters it;
The path is, but no traveler on it is seen
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DooDoot
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Re: Signs you will not attain enlightenment ?

Post by DooDoot »

devaloka wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:46 pm Im not talking about signs you are not enlightened. Im talking about signs and ways to know that you will not reach any stage of enlightenment in this lifetime
To me, both of the above are the same. If the mind is not reducing "self" now, how will it be done in the near future? What kamma are you now making to make your mind more selfless & less selfish? Thanks
devaloka wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:13 pm A friend of mine who I suspect being very advanced and maybe even enlightened accidentally slipped in his words saying I wont reach any stage in this life. He felt bad about having slipped it but admitted it was sincere.
Possibly your suspicions above are wrong. Possibly your friend is not very advanced at all.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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mjaviem
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Re: Signs you will not attain enlightenment ?

Post by mjaviem »

devaloka wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:13 pm ...
You only need to walk the Noble Eightfold Path. The Buddha taught the N8FP is for anyone and not for select people. Who do you trust more your friend or the Buddha? You only need to do your part and trust the Buddha was right. The effort you have to make is only possible to do it now. You can't do it next.

If you don't want to suffer any longer you need to start suffering any lesser.

I don't know if there are mystical signs of inability to reach a first stage of enlightenment which a fatherly being can read but I would be more concerned about symptons of it. Can you tell you won't reach it? Where is the problem?
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
dharmacorps
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Re: Signs you will not attain enlightenment ?

Post by dharmacorps »

Nobody can predict the future, so it follows that nobody can tell you you won't reach a stage of enlightenment. The only way to ensure you won't achieve anything in this lifetime is by you yourself embracing wrong view and putting forth no effort. That is a guarantee of many rebirths to come.

As others have pointed out, you do sound depressed and even suicidal based on your statements so it would benefit you to seek some help there. Putting an end to suffering is the purpose of the religion, but trying to achieve annihilation was thoroughly described by the Buddha as wrong view, and paradoxically only extends suffering.
waryoffolly
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Re: Signs you will not attain enlightenment ?

Post by waryoffolly »

There are extreme actions that can prevent you from attaining stream entry. In DN 2 a king (previously) murdered his father, and because of this didn’t experience stream entry upon hearing the Buddha teach. In AN 6.87 six actions that prevent stream entry are listed. See this thread for more details: https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/c ... say/8890/2. If you haven’t done particularly horrible actions like that, then the path is likely open to you, with hard work of course. Even angulimala (a serial killer, I guess he didn’t murder his parents though) became an arahant, although he had to deal with getting rocks thrown at him often.

Your friend is unlikely to know what your capabilities are, unless he has mastered some siddhis (seems unlikely to me 🤷‍♂️). In which case, I’d want to meet him!

Note that MN 97 suggests that even Sariputta may not be able to tell who is capable of stream entry (so much less your friend!). In this sutta he leads a brahmin to rebirth in the brahma realm, and is admonished by the Buddha afterwards for only establishing the brahmin in the brahma realm. So it seems likely that the brahmin could have attained stream entry if Sariputta had taught him the full dhamma (otherwise why would the Buddha criticize Sariputta here?). (Although others may interpret this differently).

Have some faith, this dhamma-vinaya is powerful when practiced and studied seriously over a long period of time.
devaloka
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Re: Signs you will not attain enlightenment ?

Post by devaloka »

waryoffolly wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:05 am There are extreme actions that can prevent you from attaining stream entry. In DN 2 a king (previously) murdered his father, and because of this didn’t experience stream entry upon hearing the Buddha teach. In AN 6.87 six actions that prevent stream entry are listed. See this thread for more details: https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/c ... say/8890/2. If you haven’t done particularly horrible actions like that, then the path is likely open to you, with hard work of course. Even angulimala (a serial killer, I guess he didn’t murder his parents though) became an arahant, although he had to deal with getting rocks thrown at him often.

Your friend is unlikely to know what your capabilities are, unless he has mastered some siddhis (seems unlikely to me 🤷‍♂️). In which case, I’d want to meet him!

Note that MN 97 suggests that even Sariputta may not be able to tell who is capable of stream entry (so much less your friend!). In this sutta he leads a brahmin to rebirth in the brahma realm, and is admonished by the Buddha afterwards for only establishing the brahmin in the brahma realm. So it seems likely that the brahmin could have attained stream entry if Sariputta had taught him the full dhamma (otherwise why would the Buddha criticize Sariputta here?). (Although others may interpret this differently).

Have some faith, this dhamma-vinaya is powerful when practiced and studied seriously over a long period of time.
Thank you very much ! A Siddhi I witnessed was that he could see all my thoughts and things I saw when I had eaten a san pedro mescaline cactus and other occasssions when I was under the influence. He was sober but could exactly say which things I saw visually and the things my mind visualized. He also talked to me without words during (telepathy) and I received the words and he could repeat them verbally when I was sober again after. Everytime I took a psychedelic even without teĺling him he called me up talking to me guiding me in my trip back to safety. He knew I was under influence due to contact with a greater consciousness I only saw a glimpse of with substance consumption. So I fear he said my fate with the Sidhi of future prediction.

Youre post is very reassuring . My only concern now is if Siddhi skilled individuals can know such a thing?

Thank you

Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;
The deed is, but no doer of the deed is there;
Nibbàna is, but not the man who enters it;
The path is, but no traveler on it is seen
form
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Re: Signs you will not attain enlightenment ?

Post by form »

1) unwholesome behaviour
2) careless attention and non mindfulness
3) not working on the 4NT
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mjaviem
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Re: Signs you will not attain enlightenment ?

Post by mjaviem »

devaloka wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:46 pm ...
Im not talking about signs you are not enlightened. Im talking about signs and ways to know that you will not reach any stage of enlightenment in this lifetime and if an enlightened being (with exceptions of a Buddha) can know you this about you?
devaloka wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:28 am ... So I fear he said my fate with the Sidhi of future prediction.

.. . My only concern now is if Siddhi skilled individuals can know such a thing?
...
Seeing what kind of explanations you are after I think you can find relevant advice in a Vajrayana forum. And I trust they will advice you to not take drugs so you don't build more suffering in your life. Taking drugs you'll be blind to the truth. And don't trust that kind of "guides" that "take you into safety"
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
pegembara
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Re: Signs you will not attain enlightenment ?

Post by pegembara »

One who simply refuses to follow the training ie. Noble 8FP is the only reliable sign. Nothing else matter ie. there is hope for all who are willing and able to practice. So are you tamable?
"It is true, Kesi, that it's not proper for a Tathagata to take life. But if a tamable person doesn't submit either to a mild training or to a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, then the Tathagata doesn't regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. His knowledgeable fellows in the holy life don't regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. This is what it means to be totally destroyed in the Doctrine & Discipline, when the Tathagata doesn't regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing, and one's knowledgeable fellows in the holy life don't regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
For starters
The Five Precepts:
1. Panatipata veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from destroying living creatures.
2. Adinnadana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from taking that which is not given.
3. Kamesu micchacara veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from sexual misconduct.
4. Musavada veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from incorrect speech.
5. Suramerayamajja pamadatthana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from intoxicating drinks and drugs which lead to carelessness.
Last edited by pegembara on Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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SarathW
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Re: Signs you will not attain enlightenment ?

Post by SarathW »

Your OP heading seems incorrect.
Buddha never said that any particular person will never attain enlightenment.
Even Devadatta will attain Nibbana one day.
Only you will know whether you are enlighten or not.
If you have attachment aversion ignorance you are not enlightened at the moment.
Just follow the Noble Eightfold Path.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Signs you will not attain enlightenment ?

Post by DNS »

devaloka wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:13 pm And if you know you will not reach it whats next? I dont care about building good karma for better next lives. I just want to cease existing all together and no goal besides that I find worthwhile in any way and nobody can convince me otherwise or gaslight me into thinking otherwise.
Craving for non-existence is just as unwholesome as craving for existence.
The Noble Truth of the Origin (cause) of Suffering is this: It is this craving (thirst) which produces re-becoming (rebirth) accompanied by passionate greed, and finding fresh delight now here, and now there, namely craving for sense pleasure, craving for existence and craving for non-existence.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .piya.html
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