can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:04 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:02 pm I doubt he would have been a fan of the formless attainments
realm of infinite consciousness


which he taught
It would be a mistake to think the sphere of infinite consciousness is the same as the Brahman/Atman idea of the Upanishads, since the oldest records we have of these attainments (the Buddhist suttas/agamas) pair them up with the annihilationists. Check out DN 1. Part of the basis for views for the annihilationists are the formless attainments. They are not matched with anyone else. Further evidence is found in the suttas (im unsure about the agamas) which ties the annihilationists to them, for the most part. The eternalists seem to have preferred the Jhānā, and we can possibly detect hints of this in the Upanishads themselves:

यदा पञ्चावतिष्ठन्ते ज्ञानानि मनसा सह ।
बुद्धिश्च न विचेष्टते तामाहुः परमां गतिम् ॥ १० ॥

yadā pañcāvatiṣṭhante jñānāni manasā saha |
buddhiśca na viceṣṭate tāmāhuḥ paramāṃ gatim ||

When the five organs of perception become still, together with the mind,
and the intellect ceases to be active: that is called the highest state.


Kaṭhopaniṣad
“When serenity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Lust is abandoned.”

“When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Wisdom is developed. And when wisdom is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned."


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cappuccino
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Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:08 pm pair them up with the annihilationists.
Ramana Maharshi considered the Self to be permanent and enduring, surviving physical death.

From Wikipedia
"All men's souls are immortal, but the souls of the righteous are immortal and divine." -Socrates
Good for Your Soul
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Ceisiwr
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Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:25 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:08 pm pair them up with the annihilationists.
Ramana Maharshi considered the Self to be permanent and enduring, surviving physical death.

From Wikipedia
I don't doubt that for a moment.
“When serenity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Lust is abandoned.”

“When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Wisdom is developed. And when wisdom is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned."


AN 2.31
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cappuccino
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Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:30 pm I don't doubt that for a moment.
you don't doubt his belief


you may doubt he was right
"All men's souls are immortal, but the souls of the righteous are immortal and divine." -Socrates
Good for Your Soul
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Ceisiwr
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Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:32 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:30 pm I don't doubt that for a moment.
you don't doubt his belief


you may doubt he was right
Ok...
“When serenity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Lust is abandoned.”

“When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Wisdom is developed. And when wisdom is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned."


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sunnat
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Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation

Post by sunnat »

Yes. But not while clinging to a belief. Somewhere along the way knowledges arise. One comes to know the truth of reincarnation, rebirth and other things that previously were beliefs and no amount of speculation will cause that knowing.
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Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation

Post by SteRo »

korjusk wrote: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:46 pm Is it possible?
Thanks.
Obviously not since the definition of nirvana includes the end of rebirths ("rebirth" not "reincarnation"). However there are some philosophies that don't preach rebirths and aim at a kind of liberation nevertheless like Pyrrhonism and Epicureanism or Stoicism ... you might want to investigate into these. Perhaps one of these better suits your condition.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ . (This is the esoteric essence of the yoga of continuous flow which is no different from the universal flux of materiality. Therefore exoteric natural science provides vital guidelines.) अञ्जलि वागीश्वर
asahi
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Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation

Post by asahi »

When you dont believe then you dont have to practice , why bother ?
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Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation

Post by Dhammanando »

shoenhad wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:09 pmIn the case that one does not have recollection of previous lives and therefore does not know rebirth to be a fact then what exactly is the understanding that is being described here by thanissaro and perhaps more importantly what would this knowledge of rebirth and craving be based on if recollection is indeed absent upon stream entry?
I don't know what Ajahn Thanissaro meant by his words, but if those same words had been written by me they would mean this:

The "understanding" being described would be:

1. Paññā constituted by development (bhāvanāmayā) in the case of sotāpannas who had developed knowledge of former lives beforehand;

2. Pañña constituted by hearing and thinking (sutamayā and cintāmayā) in the case of attained-to-view sotāpannas;

3. Paññā constituted by hearing alone alone in the case of faith-liberated sotāpannas.
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
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Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation

Post by salayatananirodha »

16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


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https://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/
http://buddhadust.net/backmatter/indexe ... ta_toc.htm
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
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