Nibbana. Are we chasing a mirage?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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DooDoot
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Re: Nibbana. Are we chasing a mirage?

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:43 pm I think instead of chasing an unknown Nibbana, we have to understand the known suffering or the reason why we have become Buddhists.
I doubt believing oneself to be Teacher when when is incapable of being a proper student will help.

The sotapanna (stream-enterer) has tasted Nibbana by abandoning craving as best as possible.

The puthujjana (unenlightened worldling) enters stream-entry & tastes Nibbana by giving up craving (rather than by understanding the known suffering).
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Apr 26, 2021 1:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Srilankaputra
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Re: Nibbana. Are we chasing a mirage?

Post by Srilankaputra »

Personally, I feel, in this day and age, learning is important. Enough learning to gain,
anumāna-pañña and Saddha to really launch out on 'Ariya magga bhavana' in earnest.

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
SarathW
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Re: Nibbana. Are we chasing a mirage?

Post by SarathW »

I understand that hearing Dhamma from a Kalyanamitta is important.
Once you hearing Dhamma you should have the right view.
That is basically the Four Noble Truths then should start following the Noble Eightfold Path.
When we have the right view we still do not understand what suffering is.
So at what point comes the right knowledge (when the view (Ditthi) becomes knowledge (Panna))?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
pegembara
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Re: Nibbana. Are we chasing a mirage?

Post by pegembara »

SarathW wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:18 am Nibbana. Are we chasing a mirage?

Many of us do not know what Nibbana is. But we all are trying to attain it.
For me, it sounds like I am planning to go to the second moon on earth.
Then again Buddha's teaching is more clouded with ideas like a rebirth, Kamma Vipaka, dependent origination, etc.
We all assume that historical Buddha and his followers have attained something unique.
In another way, we are looking for something we lost but we don't know what we lost.
How can we achieve something if we do not know what we need?
Is this a pursuit to know the unknown?
Perhaps this is what Buddha meant by discarding the raft we have to stop even the pursuit of Nibbana?
Nibbana is false if you are chasing it just like heaven is false. It then becomes just an idea, a construct/fabrication/creation/sankhara.
A better target is the cessation of greed, aversion and delusion.
"Or he doesn't assume form to be the self... but he may have a view such as this: 'This self is the same as the cosmos. This I will be after death, constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change.' This eternalist view is a fabrication... Or... he may have a view such as this: 'I would not be, neither would there be what is mine. I will not be, neither will there be what is mine.' This annihilationist view is a fabrication... Or... he may be doubtful & uncertain, having come to no conclusion with regard to the true Dhamma. That doubt, uncertainty, & coming-to-no-conclusion is a fabrication.

"What is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by what is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. That craving... That feeling... That contact... That ignorance is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. It is by knowing & seeing in this way that one without delay puts an end to the effluents."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The question is what if I think that I am 100% happy and think I do not have any suffering?
That thought, that doubt too, is a fabrication/sankhara.
When touched by a feeling, do you still have like and dislike?
If the answer is no, then why are you still looking for Nibbana.
We have heard about disenchantment and dispassion as steps on the path to liberation and freedom. They cannot have meaning and impact unless there is a vision of a totally different reality, one which does not contain the world's manifoldness. When one sits in meditation and starts thinking, that's the temptation of diversification and expansion (papañca). The Nibbana element is one, not manifold. One could say that it's empty of all that we know. Until that is seen, the world will keep calling, but we need not believe it all. It is a difficult task. So one has to remind oneself often, otherwise one gets caught by temptation. One should not be surprised when one doesn't find happiness; manifoldness, diversification cannot create happiness, only distraction.

Certainly one can experience pleasure from the senses. If one has good karma there will be many occasions. Good food, beautiful scenery, pleasant people, good music, interesting books, a comfortable home, not too much physical discomfort. But do these bring fulfillment? Since it didn't happen in the past, why should it occur in the future? Path and fruit bring fulfillment because they are empty of phenomena. Emptiness does not change nor does it become unpleasant and it cannot lack peace, since there is nothing to disturb it.

When people hear or read about Nibbana, they are apt to say: "How can I want nothing?" When one has seen that everything one can possibly want is meant to fill an inner void and dissatisfaction, then the time has come to want nothing. This goes beyond "not wanting" because one now accepts the reality that there is nothing worthwhile to be had. Not wanting anything will make it possible to experience that there is actually nothing — only peace and quiet.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... .html#ch12
Metta
Last edited by pegembara on Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
SarathW
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Re: Nibbana. Are we chasing a mirage?

Post by SarathW »

pegembara wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:01 am
SarathW wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:18 am Nibbana. Are we chasing a mirage?

Many of us do not know what Nibbana is. But we all are trying to attain it.
For me, it sounds like I am planning to go to the second moon on earth.
Then again Buddha's teaching is more clouded with ideas like a rebirth, Kamma Vipaka, dependent origination, etc.
We all assume that historical Buddha and his followers have attained something unique.
In another way, we are looking for something we lost but we don't know what we lost.
How can we achieve something if we do not know what we need?
Is this a pursuit to know the unknown?
Perhaps this is what Buddha meant by discarding the raft we have to stop even the pursuit of Nibbana?
Nibbana is false if you are chasing it just like heaven is false. It then becomes just an idea, a construct/fabrication/creation/sankhara.
A better target is the cessation of greed, aversion and delusion.
"Or he doesn't assume form to be the self... but he may have a view such as this: 'This self is the same as the cosmos. This I will be after death, constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change.' This eternalist view is a fabrication... Or... he may have a view such as this: 'I would not be, neither would there be what is mine. I will not be, neither will there be what is mine.' This annihilationist view is a fabrication... Or... he may be doubtful & uncertain, having come to no conclusion with regard to the true Dhamma. That doubt, uncertainty, & coming-to-no-conclusion is a fabrication.

"What is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by what is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. That craving... That feeling... That contact... That ignorance is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. It is by knowing & seeing in this way that one without delay puts an end to the effluents."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The question is what if I think that I am 100% happy and think I do not have any suffering?
That thought, that doubt too, is a fabrication/sankhara.
When touched by a feeling, do you still have like and dislike?
If the answer is no, then why are you still looking for Nibbana.
When touched by a feeling, do you still have like and dislike?
Perhaps a person can be equanimous but it is still may not be Nibbana.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
pegembara
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Re: Nibbana. Are we chasing a mirage?

Post by pegembara »

Perhaps a person can be equanimous but it is still may not be Nibbana
Of course. But that wanting for something even if it is Nibbana is still craving. A good type of craving!
"'This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.' The thought occurs to him, 'I hope that I, too, will — through the ending of the fermentations — enter & remain in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for myself in the here & now.' Then he eventually abandons craving, having relied on craving. 'This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Nibbana. Are we chasing a mirage?

Post by Srilankaputra »

SarathW wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:00 am I understand that hearing Dhamma from a Kalyanamitta is important.
Once you hearing Dhamma you should have the right view.
That is basically the Four Noble Truths then should start following the Noble Eightfold Path.
When we have the right view we still do not understand what suffering is.
So at what point comes the right knowledge (when the view (Ditthi) becomes knowledge (Panna))?
Just some thoughts, as I understand.

Dukkha is really understood when there is a glimpse of Dukkha-Nirodha, aka Nibbana. As simile, I think we have all had this experience. when suddenly the A/C or the fridge turns off and there is quiet. we really understand. The sound, the quiet and the sound was bugging us.

Another simile, if there is a man out in the open completely Absorbed, immersed in a book through craving unable to take his eyes away. It is when he becomes dispassioned and turns his eyes away he is able to see the open sky.

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
chownah
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Re: Nibbana. Are we chasing a mirage?

Post by chownah »

SarathW wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:18 am Nibbana. Are we chasing a mirage?
Maybe nibana is when you stop chasing mirage.
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Re: Nibbana. Are we chasing a mirage?

Post by sulfur_man »

I assume that if we are thinking of Nibbana (Nirvana) that way it, indeed, is a mirage. Nibbana (Nirvana) is not a particular state or a place. It also seems that your Nibanna description is confused with samadhi like "we all assume that historical Buddha and his followers have attained something unique". Suggesting the uniqueness of Nibbana is already a derogation. Uniqueness in our Western understanding is something exciting, stirring, and entailing. This is not exactly what Nibbana is. to understand Nibbana one must experience śamatha.

Willing to attain Nibbana is the aspiration to get out of the circle of samsara. This is connected with what madhyamakas stated upon the law of dependent arising (pratītyasamutpāda), which indicates the illusory nature of everything, the impermanence of all phenomena of existence. I find Nagarjuna's definition closer to the key meaning of Nibbana: "Monks, I will explain to you Nirvana and the path leading to Nirvana. What is Nirvana here? So, the depletion of passion, the depletion of anger, the depletion of ignorance ". But as we consider Nibbana neither a place nor a particular place, then is only attainable in samsara.

Anyway, it is more Mahayana doctrine, nonetheless thinking that way of Nibbana would help you to deliver from the illusionary understanding Nibbana as a mirage.
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oatsandmilk
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Re: Nibbana. Are we chasing a mirage?

Post by oatsandmilk »

SarathW wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:18 am Nibbana. Are we chasing a mirage?
Personal opinion.

Yes and no.

In my opinion, Nibbana is a state of dispassion or vairāgya which enables you to see things as they are. The 8 FP is for initiating that state of vairāgya and sustaining it lifelong.

Reaching Nibbana for few moments is perhaps not very difficult. But soon enough feelings and emotions begin to overwhelm us. We feel hungry, become irritated at a fly that is buzzing around, become distracted or concerned about something or someone.

Hence, if you believe that Nibbana is a state where you will have a halo around your head and there would be a rainbow when you die then you are chasing a mirage. No devas are coming down to escort you to the other side.

OTOH, if you believe that Nibbana is perfect stillness of the mind and absolute control over sense doors, then it is not a mirage.

:anjali:

oatsandmilk
“This doctrine is profound, hard to see, difficult to understand, calm, sublime, not within the sphere of logic, subtle, to be understood by the wise”. – Majjhima Nikāya
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Rahula
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Re: Nibbana. Are we chasing a mirage?

Post by Rahula »

This fire that has gone out in front of you, in which direction from here has it gone?
East? West? North? Or South?

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Remember what Buddha said to Santati the King’s Minister:

"On the numberless occasions, when this woman has died in this very manner,
and you have wept over her, you have shed tears more abundant than,
all the water contained in the Four Great Oceans.
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/ ... /10-09.htm
The same explanation had been given in number of other occasions.

Thus, I understand the reason for seeking Nibbana as to cease Dukka in the Samsara.
I believe that we have to look beyond Dukka in this lifetime, as Buddha had asked above.

If it is hard to find a being who was not our mother, father, son, daughter etc,
if we had shed tears/blood more abundant than, all the water contained in the Four Great Oceans,
What else should chase? other than Nibbana?
May you be happy, healthy & successful in everything you do! :anjali:
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confusedlayman
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Re: Nibbana. Are we chasing a mirage?

Post by confusedlayman »

when u satipattana, u will reach the attainment where u see everything comes and goes depending on condition and u will not see you anywhere ... I think that is nibbana when I am stops completely .. I might be wrong
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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seeker242
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Re: Nibbana. Are we chasing a mirage?

Post by seeker242 »

How can we achieve something if we do not know what we need?
We already do know that. It's the Eightfold Path.
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Re: Nibbana. Are we chasing a mirage?

Post by cappuccino »

SarathW wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:18 am How can we achieve something if we do not know what we need?
you merely need to understand dependent arising


waste no time trying to understand
SarathW
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Re: Nibbana. Are we chasing a mirage?

Post by SarathW »

seeker242 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:42 pm
How can we achieve something if we do not know what we need?
We already do know that. It's the Eightfold Path.
This is only the fourth Noble Truth so this alone is not complete.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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