DN 2: I perform a miracle, B. Sujato claims Buddha had an impoverished language and was forced to redefine 'body' as 'mi

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Ceisiwr
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Re: DN 2: I perform a miracle, B. Sujato claims Buddha had an impoverished language and was forced to redefine 'body' as

Post by Ceisiwr »

auto wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:20 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:08 pm Sadly when uploading pictures I don't seem able to choose in which order they will be displayed.
what are you referring to?
I thought your comment here:
upside down to,
was in relation to the screenshots I posted. It seems I was mistaken.
"Besides the two categories of paramattha (the real) and paññatti (concept), a third category does not exist. One who is skilful in these two categories does not tremble in the face of other teachings."

Abhidhammāvatāra by Ven. Buddhadatta
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Re: DN 2: I perform a miracle, B. Sujato claims Buddha had an impoverished language and was forced to redefine 'body' as

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:23 pm
auto wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:20 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:08 pm Sadly when uploading pictures I don't seem able to choose in which order they will be displayed.
what are you referring to?
I thought your comment here:
upside down to,
was in relation to the screenshots I posted. It seems I was mistaken.
Yes you were mistaken. Maybe you need start read less and pay more attention to what you read, never know what wrong ideas you may had and still have because of that.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: DN 2: I perform a miracle, B. Sujato claims Buddha had an impoverished language and was forced to redefine 'body' as

Post by Ceisiwr »

auto wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:28 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:23 pm
auto wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:20 pm
what are you referring to?
I thought your comment here:
upside down to,
was in relation to the screenshots I posted. It seems I was mistaken.
Yes you were mistaken. Maybe you need start read less and pay more attention to what you read, never know what wrong ideas you may had and still have because of that.
Quite the overreaction.
"Besides the two categories of paramattha (the real) and paññatti (concept), a third category does not exist. One who is skilful in these two categories does not tremble in the face of other teachings."

Abhidhammāvatāra by Ven. Buddhadatta
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Re: DN 2: I perform a miracle, B. Sujato claims Buddha had an impoverished language and was forced to redefine 'body' as

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:53 pm
auto wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:28 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:23 pm

I thought your comment here:



was in relation to the screenshots I posted. It seems I was mistaken.
Yes you were mistaken. Maybe you need start read less and pay more attention to what you read, never know what wrong ideas you may had and still have because of that.
Quite the overreaction.
Overreaction in a sense of how many letters were typed in the reply to you?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: DN 2: I perform a miracle, B. Sujato claims Buddha had an impoverished language and was forced to redefine 'body' as

Post by Ceisiwr »

auto wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 4:08 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:53 pm
auto wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:28 pm
Yes you were mistaken. Maybe you need start read less and pay more attention to what you read, never know what wrong ideas you may had and still have because of that.
Quite the overreaction.
Overreaction in a sense of how many letters were typed in the reply to you?
No.

:focus:
"Besides the two categories of paramattha (the real) and paññatti (concept), a third category does not exist. One who is skilful in these two categories does not tremble in the face of other teachings."

Abhidhammāvatāra by Ven. Buddhadatta
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Ceisiwr
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Re: DN 2: I perform a miracle, B. Sujato claims Buddha had an impoverished language and was forced to redefine 'body' as

Post by Ceisiwr »

waryoffolly wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 2:56 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 1:16 am Indeed, from a Theravādin perspective the mostly lay orientated Jhāna-lite movement would be considered to be heretical. The Pubbaseliya, a sub-sect of the Mahāsāṃghika, would take the opposite view. It's noteworthy that they seem to have been the only early Buddhist sub-sect of a tradition to have taken that position.
Hi Ceisiwr,

This is interesting. Can you point me to a reference that discusses how the issue of jhana was debated at the third council?

(And to be fair, it’s not just lay oriented-there are many well known monastics who teach what you call “jhana-lite”.)
See my post and screenshots in a few posts back.
"Besides the two categories of paramattha (the real) and paññatti (concept), a third category does not exist. One who is skilful in these two categories does not tremble in the face of other teachings."

Abhidhammāvatāra by Ven. Buddhadatta
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Re: DN 2: I perform a miracle, B. Sujato claims Buddha had an impoverished language and was forced to redefine 'body' as

Post by waryoffolly »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 4:21 pm See my post and screenshots in a few posts back.
Earlier you claimed that it seemed there was only one sub-sect (Pubbaseliya) holding the view that of “lite” jhana. (“They seem to have been the only early Buddhist sub-sect of a tradition to have taken that position“) If the kathavattu is your primary reference for this claim then your view is on shaky ground since it does not claim the Pubbaseliya were the only ones with the view.

It looks like the commentary to the kathavattu lists the Pubbaseliya as an example of those who hold the view, but does not say they were the only ones. It says some hold the view, for example the Pubbaseliya- implying there are others holding the view.

I was hoping for something that more directly discusses the debate about jhana in general at the third council-do you know of anything besides the kathavattu, such as an academic paper that surveys various sources to try and figure out which schools held which views about jhana?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: DN 2: I perform a miracle, B. Sujato claims Buddha had an impoverished language and was forced to redefine 'body' as

Post by Ceisiwr »

waryoffolly wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 4:49 pm
Earlier you claimed that it seemed there was only one sub-sect (Pubbaseliya) holding the view that of “lite” jhana. (“They seem to have been the only early Buddhist sub-sect of a tradition to have taken that position“) If the kathavattu is your primary reference for this claim then your view is on shaky ground since it does not claim the Pubbaseliya were the only ones with the view.

It looks like the commentary to the kathavattu lists the Pubbaseliya as an example of those who hold the view, but does not say they were the only ones. It says some hold the view, for example the Pubbaseliya- implying there are others holding the view.

I was hoping for something that more directly discusses the debate about jhana in general at the third council-do you know of anything besides the kathavattu, such as an academic paper that surveys various sources to try and figure out which schools held which views about jhana?
It can be read that way. The only other texts that I'm aware of are from the Sarvāstivādins and Vasubandhu's Abhidharmakośabhāsya but these are much later than the 3rd council. If I recall properly, there the senses are said to be abandoned at the 4th Jhānā, but Coëmgenu can give you more information than I.
"Besides the two categories of paramattha (the real) and paññatti (concept), a third category does not exist. One who is skilful in these two categories does not tremble in the face of other teachings."

Abhidhammāvatāra by Ven. Buddhadatta
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Re: DN 2: I perform a miracle, B. Sujato claims Buddha had an impoverished language and was forced to redefine 'body' as

Post by waryoffolly »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 5:03 pm
It can be read that way. The only other texts that I'm aware of from the Sarvāstivādins and Vasubandhu's Abhidharmakośabhāsya. If I recall properly, there the senses are said to be abandoned at the 4th Jhānā, but Coëmgenu can give you more information than I.
Ok, thanks. Bummer that there don’t seem to be many sources on the topic of “who held what views on jhana” at the third council. Looks like there’s a paper that could be written analyzing this!
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Ceisiwr
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Re: DN 2: I perform a miracle, B. Sujato claims Buddha had an impoverished language and was forced to redefine 'body' as

Post by Ceisiwr »

waryoffolly wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 5:09 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 5:03 pm
It can be read that way. The only other texts that I'm aware of from the Sarvāstivādins and Vasubandhu's Abhidharmakośabhāsya. If I recall properly, there the senses are said to be abandoned at the 4th Jhānā, but Coëmgenu can give you more information than I.
Ok, thanks. Bummer that there don’t seem to be many sources on the topic of “who held what views on jhana” at the third council. Looks like there’s a paper that could be written analyzing this!
One interesting avenue to explore would be how non-Buddhists from the earlier times viewed the Jhānā. If we look to certain Upanishads, or the Yoga Sūtra of Patañjali, we can detect an absorbed based approach.
"Besides the two categories of paramattha (the real) and paññatti (concept), a third category does not exist. One who is skilful in these two categories does not tremble in the face of other teachings."

Abhidhammāvatāra by Ven. Buddhadatta
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Tennok
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Re: DN 2: I perform a miracle, B. Sujato claims Buddha had an impoverished language and was forced to redefine 'body' as

Post by Tennok »

Thanks for answering, BrokenBones.

I appologize if I mess up the quotation.

"I'm saying they are developing concentrations that may have rapture & bliss but are totally devoid of awareness... no will of your own... ambulance jhana if you like. The Buddha abandoned such concemtrations... developed the 8 fold path and the resulting jhanas and enlightenment."

I'm often irritated by such strong statements, still it helps me to clear my own understanding. And yes, I'm wondering abut this stuff a lot. I try to check if various interpretations of Dhamma work and what they bring. I could imagine some obsessed hard jhana practicioner becaming a piti junkie. Ignoring preliminary sattipathana practice and turning into something that they call "one eyed monster" in zen. A samadhi obsessed fellow, who ignores daily phenomenas, his duties and his burdens. And lacks insight, panna. Perhaps it's my trap, I dunno.

In that sense I find jhana debates beneficial, and I'm gratefull for different points of view. But the "ambulance jhana", as taught by A. Brahm - which I find a very inspiring teacher, btw - is not devoid of awarness. First of all, you still got jhana factors present. When you experience strong piti, sukha, and ekkagata working together, thats a lot of stuff happening. It's rather an "expanded consciousness" feel. And if there was no awarness, how could one say, that the samadhi, or jhana, happend? I don't think that A. Brahm teaches that.

I don't want to sound like a pompous jhana claimer, but i 've experienced some glimpses of jhana factors, especially during retreats. In my case, ekkagata contained of nimitta, too. It was like a pure mind, free from hindrances and kilesa. Senses were irrelevant then. Awarness was present and the result was a lot of metta and a feeling of ease, lasting for hours, or even days.

So I can't agree with you, that the "hard jhana" model cuts out awarness. Thats a misinterpretation. As about lack of "the will of your own", the purpose of jhana meditiation is overcaming hindrances and letting go, which shall bring insight. "Lack of will" can be a realization of anatta. I don't think samadhi happens becouse of our will effort, which usually means even more tanha, more craving. And I feel that in Samsara it's more likely to be possesed by too much will and craving, than too much piti.

Good lack with your practice, anyway.
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Re: DN 2: I perform a miracle, B. Sujato claims Buddha had an impoverished language and was forced to redefine 'body' as

Post by DooDoot »

Tennok wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 3:50 am I'm often irritated by such strong statements
If i'm foolish, a chuckle & post emoticons at such baseless illogical statements of a light non-super-human jhana :mrgreen:
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Re: DN 2: I perform a miracle, B. Sujato claims Buddha had an impoverished language and was forced to redefine 'body' as

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 1:16 amThe Pubbaseliya, a sub-sect of the Mahāsāṃghika, would take the opposite view. It's noteworthy that they seem to have been the only early Buddhist sub-sect of a tradition to have taken that position.
The Vaibhāṣikas of the Sarvāstivāda have eye, ear, body, and mind-consciousness active in first dhyāna, and only mind in the second. The Sautrāntikas of the Sarvāstivāda keep body-consciousness up to the third dhyāna ending at the fourth AFAIK. See "Jhana and Mahayana" thread in "Early Buddhism."

There is more differences than this. "Sati" is a universal caitasika in Sarvāstivāda, meaning you can be mindful while in dhyāna according to them.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Tue May 04, 2021 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It is because the valleys are empty that they echo. It is because the mirror is empty that it reflects. It is because the flute is empty that it affects sound. It is because the ears are empty that they can listen. It is because the eyes are empty that they can see. It is because the nose is empty that it can smell.

If these were of substance inside, then there would be obstruction in these.

(from the writings of Master Liè, Daoist text, ~370AD)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: DN 2: I perform a miracle, B. Sujato claims Buddha had an impoverished language and was forced to redefine 'body' as

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 2:33 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 1:16 amThe Pubbaseliya, a sub-sect of the Mahāsāṃghika, would take the opposite view. It's noteworthy that they seem to have been the only early Buddhist sub-sect of a tradition to have taken that position.
The Vaibhasikas of the Sarvāstivāda have eye, ear, body, and mind-consciousness active in first dhyāna. The Sautrāntikas keep body-consciousness up to the third dhyāna ending at the fourth AFAIK. See "Jhana and Mahayana" thread in "Early Buddhism."
This was all post the 3rd council wasn't it?
"Besides the two categories of paramattha (the real) and paññatti (concept), a third category does not exist. One who is skilful in these two categories does not tremble in the face of other teachings."

Abhidhammāvatāra by Ven. Buddhadatta
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Re: DN 2: I perform a miracle, B. Sujato claims Buddha had an impoverished language and was forced to redefine 'body' as

Post by Coëmgenu »

There would be absolutely no way of knowing that AFAIK. Certainly the Mahavibhasa text itself and things like that post-date the third council, but who knows when people started believing such things before writing said treatise?
It is because the valleys are empty that they echo. It is because the mirror is empty that it reflects. It is because the flute is empty that it affects sound. It is because the ears are empty that they can listen. It is because the eyes are empty that they can see. It is because the nose is empty that it can smell.

If these were of substance inside, then there would be obstruction in these.

(from the writings of Master Liè, Daoist text, ~370AD)
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