The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Re: Jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

auto wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 2:46 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 4:45 pm
auto wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 4:38 pm
hard jhana person is right if the moment last very short time. Some call it a blimp or going out or something like that a'la practioners like Daniel Ingram, i don't know who thought out this term.
Sounds unsubstantiated.
p793 wrote:18. Herein, (i) What is the attainment of cessation? It is the non-occurrence of
consciousness and its concomitants owing to their progressive cessation.
That isn’t Jhana.
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”

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Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 2:52 pm
auto wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 2:46 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 4:45 pm

Sounds unsubstantiated.
p793 wrote:18. Herein, (i) What is the attainment of cessation? It is the non-occurrence of
consciousness and its concomitants owing to their progressive cessation.
That isn’t Jhana.
You are off the tangent. You claimed there is no sound in jhana, so i drew possible line where it could be true, which is a non-occurrence of consciousness, and how you are off tanget is that you don't understand what i said by responding to me it isn't jhana, yea it isn't it is cessation, daa.
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Flipping the pages of first Samyutta, in the sutta on Stone splinter, Buddha is called
  • "a beast of burden"
bearing the burden? He did not bear the burden of the 5 aggregates. https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN22_22.html 
What was the burden that Buddha bore? He was the Tathagata, fully released. The awakened Buddha almost decided not to communicate, what he had awoken to.
Brahma sahampathi convinced him otherwise.
Sariputta was assigned with training of novices until they entered the stream.
Moggallana's  assignment: training them towards 4th jhana, and i wondered of the Burden of Buddha, the task of buddha, The World honoured One! the Blessed One!
  • It was not all smooth sailing for Buddha.
Some nasty and mean wanderers went around bad mouthing him. A woman accused him of impregnating her.Consider what he had to deal with, among his own followers. A very mean monk tossed a boulder at him, with the intention of killing him.https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/sn1.38

Early in his dispensation, newbie monks were clamoring for gifts.
That is when Buddha spoke of Son's Flesh SN 12.63.
When one resorts to greed, one resorts to eating one's son's flesh? 
Many think of the simile as a metaphor for overindulgence in physical food. Buddha meant it also as an overindulgence in the strings of sensual pleasures. 
He also used the opportunity to point out that any unmindful contact leads to suffering, via pathway of arisen intention and generation of a new consciousness.
  • Consciousness feeds on consciousness
 How often do we pay attention to it, when we make contact with the sensory world? 
The challenge of DO? is the reversal of DO, dismantling of  the links that lead to suffering, e.g. when contact ceases, then feeling ceases.  Unsavoury intentions arise due to feelings raised by contacts with the sensory world. By practising the 8-fold path, one learns to do away with ignorant contacts, or contacts laden with longing.
In SN 22.80 Alms gatherer, the bad conduct of some monks, leads to an amazing teaching. Buddha's most inspiring teachings arise out of such situations.
In SN 22.81 Parileyya: Buddha walks away from quarreling monks, and an elephant takes care of
the Buddha.
On another note, It was kind of the moderators to visit the thread on Jhana at my request, and will respond to them over time. Spring has arrived, a beautiful time of the year. Country gets laden with blossoms. It reminds me of the flowers laden at the feet of the Buddha. l Took a break from social media, to spend time by the seashore.
The waves like inbreath and outbreath have a calming effect, leading to a sorrowless state. When all mental proliferations cease, it truly has a nibbanic effect. 
With love :candle:
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Mikenz66 wrote
That would seem odd for "A Buddhist discussion forum on the Dhamma of Theravāda Buddhism".  To move to "connections to other paths"
Is this the first time anyone suggested on DW that a conversation be moved to "connections to other paths?"
In fact on this very same thread Ven. Dhammnando suggested that a conversation happening right here be moved to  "Connections to other paths". To clarify himself he reposted my OP, which was very kind of him. Under that reposting on March 27/2021 he also wrote 
Anyone wishing to discuss jhāna in relation to Hindu methods are invited to start a new thread in Connections to other Paths.
Pl read the OP again.
The OP is about MN 117. The jhana involved relies on the aforementioned path. I admitted in the OP my own flaw, that I find it harder to stick to Right speech as defined in MN 117. Speech is an impulsive thing, sometimes folks identify a joke as a sign of aggression.
Thus speech can be tricky. "Beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder." Aggression could be likewise.  In fact a friend on DW on another thread, once wrote
Neither for Pulsar (who was just joking), or for myself (who could care less).
Speech is not always well thought out, hence it is more likely to be flawed, I admit.

Ceiswer et al insists on this thread, the Jhāna are not unique to Buddha.
Do you think the jhana that belongs in the 8-fold path was practiced in pre-Buddha times? This thread is based on the Pali canon.
Can you bring me a single sutta from the Pali canon, where the text identifies anything other than the fine material jhanas as jhana?
Pali canon is not without flaws, but this is one instance where the compilers maintained consistency.
  • In the Pali canon only the four fine material jhanas, via which Buddha awoke are called Jhana.
Commentaries may present other narratives, but this thread is not about the commentaries.
Do you believe there were pre-buddhist meditations that were compliant with the eight-fold path? If so, why is Buddha given credit for finding a path to the end of suffering?
  • End of suffering is an All or None matter in my eyes.
People interpret suttas in multiple ways.
Could it be because some do not have a firm foundation on Dependent origination unique to the Buddha? 
Recently I read Migajala sutta, SN 35.63 and it struck me that it was a teaching on Dependent Origination, even though not a single word in the sutta says so. 
In fact some folks speculate that the intention of Migajala is to deflate the conceit of those who think physical withdrawal from the world is the solution to one's woes. But folks who understand DO see it as clear teaching on Paticca Samuppada. The synopsis of the sutta may be...
One who can block the entry of nimittas, upon sight, sound etc are able to block the admission of suffering.
One lives without a companion, amidst crowds of people, on the internet, (a modern version of it might say).
Posting on the internet does not mean there is something flawed about the practitioner.
Goal of Samma sati and Samma samadhi is to 'live alone'.
The chinese translation of Migajala ends with, 
thirsty love
is a companion, and one who has given it up, is therefore called 'dwelling alone', or 'living alone'
Thirsty love in other words is craving.

I shall answer your comment regarding VSM as I find the time.
However let me remind the readers, the OP is about the 8 or 10 fold path. OP does not include commentary.
If one wants to bring up other meditations, and commentary, i also have a thread on DW viewtopic.php?f=13&t=34797 called
"Misconceptions regarding Jhana"
Any meditation that does not involve Noble path, may be discussed under that thread.

With love :candle:
PS From my previous thread "Between Jhana and Satipatthana is there a big differenceviewtopic.php?f=13&t=34789 
Buddha in SN 47.6 "Do not stray outside your own resort into the domain of others, Mara will gain access to those who stray outside their own resort into the domain of others... Move in your own ancestral domain"
It is possible to withdraw into our ancestral domain even as we post on the www, as stated
in Migajala.
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