Keep away from Mahamuna sect in Sri Lanka?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
SarathW
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Re: Keep away from Mahamuna sect in Sri Lanka?

Post by SarathW »

BrokenBones wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:31 am
4GreatHeavenlyKings wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:06 am Is he alleged to be a crypto-Catholic?

Not that the other allegations are not serious as well, of course.
We don't know... it's just Sri Lankan sangha/political tittle tattle... unless there is any evidence?

How is a refusal to accept Abhidhamma a 'serious' allegation?

The Buddha specifically asked his disciples to follow the suttas and vinaya.

There are many monks who don't accept Abhidhamma... even more who accept it without ever reading it or even the suttas(maybe one or two suttas at best)... the Visuddhimagga is their book of choice.

Should they no longer be regarded as Theravāda monks?
The way I understand, it is mandatory to accept Tipitaka if you want to call yourself a Theravada.
You may chose to ignore the reading of Abhidhamma, but as a leader of a sect you should not reject and discourage others studding it.
I think we had this discussion in this form and can't find the link.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theravada ... philosophy
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
BrokenBones
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Re: Keep away from Mahamuna sect in Sri Lanka?

Post by BrokenBones »

SarathW wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:07 am
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:31 am
4GreatHeavenlyKings wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:06 am Is he alleged to be a crypto-Catholic?

Not that the other allegations are not serious as well, of course.
We don't know... it's just Sri Lankan sangha/political tittle tattle... unless there is any evidence?

How is a refusal to accept Abhidhamma a 'serious' allegation?

The Buddha specifically asked his disciples to follow the suttas and vinaya.

There are many monks who don't accept Abhidhamma... even more who accept it without ever reading it or even the suttas(maybe one or two suttas at best)... the Visuddhimagga is their book of choice.

Should they no longer be regarded as Theravāda monks?
The way I understand, it is mandatory to accept Tipitaka if you want to call yourself a Theravada.
You may chose to ignore the reading of Abhidhamma, but as a leader of a sect you should not reject and discourage others studding it.
I think we had this discussion in this form and can't find the link.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theravada ... philosophy
I'd have thought a monks first duty would be to the Buddha and the Dhamma he actually taught; rather than a sub sect sprung from his original teachings with all their excess baggage.

Haven't you read the sutta where the Buddha states that the suttas and vinaya are the only authority?
SarathW
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Re: Keep away from Mahamuna sect in Sri Lanka?

Post by SarathW »

Haven't you read the sutta where the Buddha states that the suttas and vinaya are the only authority?
No. What Buddha said was to keep Dhamma as your teacher.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
BrokenBones
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Re: Keep away from Mahamuna sect in Sri Lanka?

Post by BrokenBones »

SarathW wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:37 am
Haven't you read the sutta where the Buddha states that the suttas and vinaya are the only authority?
No. What Buddha said was to keep Dhamma as your teacher.
Very good 👏

Now what was the Dhamma he was referring to?

There was no Abhidhamma floating around at the First Council... subsequently, eighteen schools thought they could do better than the Buddha... wrote their respective Abhidhamma and mythologised its source.

He must have been referring to the suttas... isn't that obvious?

The fact that Theravada has maintained the suttas and vinaya for later generations is wonderful... but individuals; laypeople or monks, don't have to buy into their sectarian fairytales.
SarathW
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Re: Keep away from Mahamuna sect in Sri Lanka?

Post by SarathW »

My surprise is that all the scholars who reject Abhidhamma create their own version of Sutta Pitaka and ask people to accept their version and reject Abhidhamma.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Keep away from Mahamuna sect in Sri Lanka?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Sects is a major hurdle for Buddhists :sage:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Keep away from Mahamuna sect in Sri Lanka?

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:49 am
The fact that Theravada has maintained the suttas and vinaya for later generations is wonderful... but individuals; laypeople or monks, don't have to buy into their sectarian fairytales.
Therefore, we must accept your Suttavadin fairytales.
"Besides the two categories of paramattha (the real) and paññatti (concept), a third category does not exist. One who is skilful in these two categories does not tremble in the face of other teachings."

Abhidhammāvatāra by Ven. Buddhadatta
BrokenBones
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Re: Keep away from Mahamuna sect in Sri Lanka?

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:35 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:49 am
The fact that Theravada has maintained the suttas and vinaya for later generations is wonderful... but individuals; laypeople or monks, don't have to buy into their sectarian fairytales.
Therefore, we must accept your Suttavadin fairytales.
If you want to relegate the suttas to mere fairytales... that's your business.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Keep away from Mahamuna sect in Sri Lanka?

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:01 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:35 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:49 am
The fact that Theravada has maintained the suttas and vinaya for later generations is wonderful... but individuals; laypeople or monks, don't have to buy into their sectarian fairytales.
Therefore, we must accept your Suttavadin fairytales.
If you want to relegate the suttas to mere fairytales... that's your business.
No, just your interpretation.
"Besides the two categories of paramattha (the real) and paññatti (concept), a third category does not exist. One who is skilful in these two categories does not tremble in the face of other teachings."

Abhidhammāvatāra by Ven. Buddhadatta
arkaprava
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Re: Keep away from Mahamuna sect in Sri Lanka?

Post by arkaprava »

retrofuturist wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:03 am Greetings,
arkaprava wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:00 am Are the Sri Lankan Buddhists hyper nationalists, like the Hindu nationalists currently in India ?
If you mean is there more of a commitment to "Sri Lankan Buddhism" than there is to Buddhavacana, then from what I've discerned to date, the answer would be Yes.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Thanks a lot for clearing that up.
BrokenBones
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Re: Keep away from Mahamuna sect in Sri Lanka?

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:56 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:01 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:35 pm

Therefore, we must accept your Suttavadin fairytales.
If you want to relegate the suttas to mere fairytales... that's your business.
No, just your interpretation.
I think you should take a hard look at the Abhidhamma origination story.

The Buddha visits heaven (perfectly acceptable) teaches the devas (perfectly acceptable)... does this for 3 months leaving a body double in his place, repeats the teachings in secret to Sariputta. Buddha never mentions it in the suttas. Sariputta never mentions it.

Sariputta enters parinibba... nothing said.
Buddha enters parinibba... nothing said.
First Council convened... nothing said.

Several hundred years later... voila... here are the secret teachings that the Buddha really taught.

I find the Tibetan Terma teachings have more validity... and they're just too funny.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Keep away from Mahamuna sect in Sri Lanka?

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:53 pm
I think you should take a hard look at the Abhidhamma origination story.

The Buddha visits heaven (perfectly acceptable) teaches the devas (perfectly acceptable)... does this for 3 months leaving a body double in his place, repeats the teachings in secret to Sariputta. Buddha never mentions it in the suttas. Sariputta never mentions it.

Sariputta enters parinibba... nothing said.
Buddha enters parinibba... nothing said.
First Council convened... nothing said.

Several hundred years later... voila... here are the secret teachings that the Buddha really taught.

I find the Tibetan Terma teachings have more validity... and they're just too funny.
I have studied its origins. Based on your caricature above I seem to understand it better than you. Tradition has it that it was taught by the Buddha. I agree with Ven. Bodhi that it comes from Theras. Interestingly the Sarvāstivādins said it came from later disciples straight away, but that it can already be found in the Agamas. As far as I’m aware all of the Abhidhammas trace their origin to Sariputta, so there seems that Sariputta was possibly teaching something akin to proto-Abhidhamma. Likely it was merely the matrixes and a form of commentary back then. The mention of the matrixes is actually referred to directly in the suttas. Abhidhamma is too, but this was likely referring to Q & A about the Dhamma and so how to debate. A bit like a proto-Yamaka.

Traditional Theravada of course would point to the fact that the Abhidhamma is mentioned directly in the Vinaya, and that Vinaya and Dhamma doesn’t necessarily exclude the Abhidhamma since sometimes it’s simply classified along with Dhamma.
"Besides the two categories of paramattha (the real) and paññatti (concept), a third category does not exist. One who is skilful in these two categories does not tremble in the face of other teachings."

Abhidhammāvatāra by Ven. Buddhadatta
BrokenBones
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Re: Keep away from Mahamuna sect in Sri Lanka?

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:52 am
BrokenBones wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:53 pm
I think you should take a hard look at the Abhidhamma origination story.

The Buddha visits heaven (perfectly acceptable) teaches the devas (perfectly acceptable)... does this for 3 months leaving a body double in his place, repeats the teachings in secret to Sariputta. Buddha never mentions it in the suttas. Sariputta never mentions it.

Sariputta enters parinibba... nothing said.
Buddha enters parinibba... nothing said.
First Council convened... nothing said.

Several hundred years later... voila... here are the secret teachings that the Buddha really taught.

I find the Tibetan Terma teachings have more validity... and they're just too funny.
I have studied its origins. Based on your caricature above I seem to understand it better than you. Tradition has it that it was taught by the Buddha. I agree with Ven. Bodhi that it comes from Theras. Interestingly the Sarvāstivādins said it came from later disciples straight away, but that it can already be found in the Agamas. As far as I’m aware all of the Abhidhammas trace their origin to Sariputta, so there seems that Sariputta was possibly teaching something akin to proto-Abhidhamma. Likely it was merely the matrixes and a form of commentary back then. The mention of the matrixes is actually referred to directly in the suttas. Abhidhamma is too, but this was likely referring to Q & A about the Dhamma and so how to debate. A bit like a proto-Yamaka.

Traditional Theravada of course would point to the fact that the Abhidhamma is mentioned directly in the Vinaya, and that Vinaya and Dhamma doesn’t necessarily exclude the Abhidhamma since sometimes it’s simply classified along with Dhamma.
Nonsense. Abhidhamma is not referred to in the suttas the way you are trying to imply.

No secret teachings... an open hand.

If I have caricatured it... I apologise...

Perhaps you could briefly instruct me on its official origination.
SarathW
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Re: Keep away from Mahamuna sect in Sri Lanka?

Post by SarathW »

Nonsense. Abhidhamma is not referred to in the suttas the way you are trying to imply.
Have you read Abhidhamma?
At least just like me scratch the surface?
Did you find anything, not in line with Sutta?
That is what matters. Why I am protecting Abhidhamma is that enhances my Sutta knowledge.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Keep away from Mahamuna sect in Sri Lanka?

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:58 am
Nonsense. Abhidhamma is not referred to in the suttas the way you are trying to imply.
It is directly in the Vinaya. In the suttas we find the proto-Abhidhamma matika (matrix) being referred to:
In that case, friend Sariputta, listen to the Dhamma. Pay careful attention. I will speak.”

“As you say, friend,” Ven. Sariputta responded.

Ven. Ananda said, “There is the case, friend, where a monk masters the Dhamma: dialogues, narratives of mixed prose & verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & answer sessions. He teaches the Dhamma in detail—as he has heard it, as he has remembered it—to others. He gets others to recite the Dhamma in detail—as they have heard it, as they have remembered it. He holds a group chanting of the Dhamma in detail—as he has heard it, as he has remembered it. He thinks about & evaluates the Dhamma as he has heard it, as he has remembered it; he contemplates it with his intellect. He enters the Rains in monasteries in which there are senior monks who are learned, who know the tradition, who are holders of the Dhamma, the Vinaya, & the Matika. Having approached them periodically, he questions them & quizzes them: ‘How it this, venerable sirs? What is the meaning of this?’ They make open for him what wasn’t open, make plain what wasn’t plain, dispel doubt on various doubtful points.
https://suttacentral.net/an6.51/en/thanissaro

There are also suttas which actually say “Abhidhamma”, but this seems to refer more to Q & A debates between monks and nuns. So, a proto Yamaka of sorts.
Perhaps you could briefly instruct me on its official origination.
It started as matikas and proto-commentaries in the Buddha’s time, possibly through Ven. Sariputta and the monks and nuns under his tutelage.
"Besides the two categories of paramattha (the real) and paññatti (concept), a third category does not exist. One who is skilful in these two categories does not tremble in the face of other teachings."

Abhidhammāvatāra by Ven. Buddhadatta
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