Keep away from Mahamuna sect in Sri Lanka?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
SarathW
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Re: Keep away from Mahamuna sect in Sri Lanka?

Post by SarathW »

Another important point I forgot to mention in the OP was that this monk putting the blame on the sculpture artist for creating the Buddha's image in Bahamian rocks! Not the terrorist who blew it up!
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
BrokenBones
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Re: Keep away from Mahamuna sect in Sri Lanka?

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:22 am
BrokenBones wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:58 am
Nonsense. Abhidhamma is not referred to in the suttas the way you are trying to imply.
It is directly in the Vinaya. In the suttas we find the proto-Abhidhamma matika (matrix) being referred to:
In that case, friend Sariputta, listen to the Dhamma. Pay careful attention. I will speak.”

“As you say, friend,” Ven. Sariputta responded.

Ven. Ananda said, “There is the case, friend, where a monk masters the Dhamma: dialogues, narratives of mixed prose & verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & answer sessions. He teaches the Dhamma in detail—as he has heard it, as he has remembered it—to others. He gets others to recite the Dhamma in detail—as they have heard it, as they have remembered it. He holds a group chanting of the Dhamma in detail—as he has heard it, as he has remembered it. He thinks about & evaluates the Dhamma as he has heard it, as he has remembered it; he contemplates it with his intellect. He enters the Rains in monasteries in which there are senior monks who are learned, who know the tradition, who are holders of the Dhamma, the Vinaya, & the Matika. Having approached them periodically, he questions them & quizzes them: ‘How it this, venerable sirs? What is the meaning of this?’ They make open for him what wasn’t open, make plain what wasn’t plain, dispel doubt on various doubtful points.
https://suttacentral.net/an6.51/en/thanissaro

There are also suttas which actually say “Abhidhamma”, but this seems to refer more to Q & A debates between monks and nuns. So, a proto Yamaka of sorts.
Perhaps you could briefly instruct me on its official origination.
It started as matikas and proto-commentaries in the Buddha’s time, possibly through Ven. Sariputta and the monks and nuns under his tutelage.
Grasping... the vinaya mention is an obviously late addition and contradicts what is stated elsewhere in the vinaya.

You haven't really informed me of its origination.

How was such a vast teaching so startling absent from the suttas?

If you would rather accept Buddhaghosa's words then that's fine.

Apparently the Buddha went to the wrong heaven to teach his mother and the Buddha broke his promise to Ananda by teaching the Abhidhamma to Sariputta and not Ananda.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Keep away from Mahamuna sect in Sri Lanka?

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:21 am
Grasping... the vinaya mention is an obviously late addition and contradicts what is stated elsewhere in the vinaya.
That wasn’t the Vinaya. It was a sutta. There are many more.
You haven't really informed me of its origination.

How was such a vast teaching so startling absent from the suttas?
Because it wasn’t all of the books we have today. I just said it was proto-Abhidhamma. Matikas and proto-commentaries, like DN 33.
If you would rather accept Buddhaghosa's words then that's fine.
I can easily reply back with the eternalist Thanisarro :roll:
Apparently the Buddha went to the wrong heaven to teach his mother and the Buddha broke his promise to Ananda by teaching the Abhidhamma to Sariputta and not Ananda.
That’s the traditional account. As I’ve said, I agree with Ven. Bodhi and am much more in his camp.
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


Visuddhimagga
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retrofuturist
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Re: Keep away from Mahamuna sect in Sri Lanka?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:25 am As I’ve said, I agree with Ven. Bodhi and am much more in his camp.
Oh.
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:I also believe that the Commentaries take unnecessary risks when they try to read back into the Suttas ideas deriving from tools of interpretation that appeared perhaps centuries after the Suttas were compiled.
Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view?" (SN 5.10)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Keep away from Mahamuna sect in Sri Lanka?

Post by Ceisiwr »

retrofuturist wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:31 am Greetings,
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:25 am As I’ve said, I agree with Ven. Bodhi and am much more in his camp.
Oh.
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:I also believe that the Commentaries take unnecessary risks when they try to read back into the Suttas ideas deriving from tools of interpretation that appeared perhaps centuries after the Suttas were compiled.
Metta,
Paul. :)
A quote out of context doesn’t mean much, since I have no idea what he is referring to.
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


Visuddhimagga
BrokenBones
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Re: Keep away from Mahamuna sect in Sri Lanka?

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:25 am
BrokenBones wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:21 am
Grasping... the vinaya mention is an obviously late addition and contradicts what is stated elsewhere in the vinaya.
That wasn’t the Vinaya. It was a sutta. There are many more.
You haven't really informed me of its origination.

How was such a vast teaching so startling absent from the suttas?
Because it wasn’t all of the books we have today. I just said it was proto-Abhidhamma. Matikas and proto-commentaries, like DN 33.
If you would rather accept Buddhaghosa's words then that's fine.
I can easily reply back with the eternalist Thanisarro :roll:
Apparently the Buddha went to the wrong heaven to teach his mother and the Buddha broke his promise to Ananda by teaching the Abhidhamma to Sariputta and not Ananda.
That’s the traditional account. As I’ve said, I agree with Ven. Bodhi and am much more in his camp.
I was referring to the mention in the vinaya.

The sutta you hold dear as proof, proves nothing.

Is Thanissaro an eternalist? I'll have to read up on his teachings 😀 or maybe not... I certainly appreciate his talks on jhana... baby & bath water.

As for the 'traditional account'... I thought the whole argument was about the 'Theravada' tradition... you seem to pick and choose what bits of the Theravada tradition you hold to.

At least I'm upfront about what I reject.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Keep away from Mahamuna sect in Sri Lanka?

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:36 am
I was referring to the mention in the vinaya.
I see. It could be late, yes. Then again perhaps not.
The sutta you hold dear as proof, proves nothing.
It shows how the Abhidhamma developed. It started with matikas and proto-commentaries. Even Sujato and Analaylo argue this.
Is Thanissaro an eternalist? I'll have to read up on his teachings 😀 or maybe not... I certainly appreciate his talks on jhana... baby & bath water.
This is news to you? :? So it seems you rely entirely upon your own ill-informed opinion then. If not, then I can easily reply to your original remark with whomever it is you get guidance from.
As for the 'traditional account'... I thought the whole argument was about the 'Theravada' tradition... you seem to pick and choose what bits of the Theravada tradition you hold to.

At least I'm upfront about what I reject.
So am I, but unlike some fools I don’t reject things I’ve never read nor studied properly.
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


Visuddhimagga
BrokenBones
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Re: Keep away from Mahamuna sect in Sri Lanka?

Post by BrokenBones »

retrofuturist wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:31 am Greetings,
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:25 am As I’ve said, I agree with Ven. Bodhi and am much more in his camp.
Oh.
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:I also believe that the Commentaries take unnecessary risks when they try to read back into the Suttas ideas deriving from tools of interpretation that appeared perhaps centuries after the Suttas were compiled.
Metta,
Paul. :)
I think Bhikkhu Bodhi is being very charitable and diplomatic with the words he uses here...
I could use a few of my own but this is a family forum.
SarathW
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Re: Keep away from Mahamuna sect in Sri Lanka?

Post by SarathW »

[No Buddhist country in the world has a continuous lineage of Arahants. Nor is there a generation of remaining successful monks. For this reason, yogis who meditate with the intention of attaining results are more likely to be deceived in various ways. It is not the fault of the yogis who sincerely practice the Dhamma. It is a harm to give priority to personal guidance instead of giving priority to Dhamma and discipline which is the Shastra Sasana./quote]

Translation of the Sinhalese article below from his website.

https://mahamevnawa.lk/magaphala/

So he promotes accumulating merits.
Do not be afraid of merit
https://mahamevnawa.lk/do-not-be-afraid-of-merit/
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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