🟧 Sectarian Tenets, AN 3.61 (Week of October 17, 2021)

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ToVincent
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Re: 📍Sectarian Tenets, AN 3.61 (Week of October 17, 2021)

Post by ToVincent »

Sam Vara wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:40 pm ...
Really!

If Yahoo groups hadn't completely shut down last year, you could have read the discussion between Pind, Thiele & McClure*, on the Pali Discussion Group.
*https://static.sirimangalo.org/DPR/cont ... mpound.htm

And you still haven't answered that petty point of grammar (compared to the importance of the real meaning(s) of paṭicca); namely:
"Do absolutives normally occur as first member in compounds?"

And boy! , I don't think that "meaning" is a waste of time — unless the intention of those who believe so, is to drag you for ever into indecipherable and nonsensical significances; sprinkled with endless petty points of grammar.
You can have all the good Pali grammar in the world — if the right meaning is not there, what is the use for it.

In the case of the OP wondering on responsability, I repeat:
Responsability to end the maintenance and establishment of consciousness — As well as ending the avijja nidāna, through a set of feedbacks, that put an end to the chain of downward (two ways) bonds — This is what is at stake.
Maybe that is what bothered you?
This "feedback" straight or underlying meanings in paṭicca, paccaya & nidana - that leads to put an end to the things of this world.

- No more craving — no more maintenance and establishment of consciousness (with the endless vicious circle that ensues).
- No more saṅkhārā — no more avijjā.
.
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Sam Vara
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Re: 📍Sectarian Tenets, AN 3.61 (Week of October 17, 2021)

Post by Sam Vara »

ToVincent wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:50 am
Sam Vara wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:40 pm ...
Really!

If Yahoo groups hadn't completely shut down last year, you could have read the discussion between Pind, Thiele & McClure*, on the Pali Discussion Group.
*https://static.sirimangalo.org/DPR/cont ... mpound.htm

And you still haven't answered that petty point of grammar (compared to the importance of the real meaning(s) of paṭicca); namely:
"Do absolutives normally occur as first member in compounds?"

And boy! , I don't think that "meaning" is a waste of time — unless the intention of those who believe so, is to drag you for ever into indecipherable and nonsensical significances; sprinkled with endless petty points of grammar.
You can have all the good Pali grammar in the world — if the right meaning is not there, what is the use for it.

In the case of the OP wondering on responsability, I repeat:
Responsability to end the maintenance and establishment of consciousness — As well as ending the avijja nidāna, through a set of feedbacks, that put an end to the chain of downward (two ways) bonds — This is what is at stake.
Maybe that is what bothered you?
Nothing has bothered me, ToVincent, and I have responded via PM so as not to derail this thread.
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confusedlayman
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Re: 📍Sectarian Tenets, AN 3.61 (Week of October 17, 2021)

Post by confusedlayman »

origin of thought due to ignorance is house builder...
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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SDC
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Re: 📍Sectarian Tenets, AN 3.61 (Week of October 17, 2021)

Post by SDC »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:25 pm origin of thought due to ignorance is house builder...
One of my favorite verses!!! :thumbsup:
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
ToVincent
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Re: 📍Sectarian Tenets, AN 3.61 (Week of October 17, 2021)

Post by ToVincent »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:20 am ....
I have answered your PM.
Maybe you would like to share the reference (that you could have easily found back, with a simple Google search), in a new Pali thread dedicated solely to "paṭicca" — as you seem to find this debatable gerund stuff, of the utmost importance.
More anyway, than the right (historical) meaning(s) of paṭicca (and paccaya, and nidāna) - or the responsability taken through the element of initiative that could derive from that — which your compeers seem not to care about so far.

Maybe you can start with the real historical meaning of paṭicca, before we go further with the debatable "syntactical compound", to which we should add the "implicit" word paccaya, (also) wrongly translated as "condition"?!?!?
What a mess!

Maybe you could do that.
So that we could wonder if that gerund matters so much.
prati-itya as pfp. of prati-i (n. sg. voc. | m. sg. voc.)
or
pratītya as abs. of prati-i

A deed that will to be returned to him.
or
A deed returning to him
AN 8.12 (cited above)

What's the big difference if the meaning is wrong, (not using the right meaning above — viz. return to) ?


You know, it could also be just a noun:
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/p/paṭicca/ (BSk. प्रतीत्य pratītya ? - no!, pratītya is just plain Sanskrit from RV. )
https://www.sanskritdictionary.com/pratītya/145826/1

________

And again, to understand how one can be responsible through the element of initiative (see above), one must understand what these feedbacks (paṭicca, paccaya, and nidāna) are all about; and how they can help getting out of the things of this world.

Meaning prevails.
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Sam Vara
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Re: 📍Sectarian Tenets, AN 3.61 (Week of October 17, 2021)

Post by Sam Vara »

ToVincent wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:48 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:20 am ....
I have answered your PM.
Yes, I have responded to it via PM, and will continue to do so if you wish. I'll not do that here, as I said, as it derails the thread. This is about AN3.61.
ToVincent
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Re: 📍Sectarian Tenets, AN 3.61 (Week of October 17, 2021)

Post by ToVincent »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:06 pm Yes, I have responded to it via PM, and will continue to do so if you wish. I'll not do that here, as I said, as it derails the thread. This is about AN3.61.
It does not derail a thing.
The OP is about "responsibility", and so is AN 3.61 — And not understanding the real historical meaning (etymology) of paṭicca, paccaya and nidāna, means that one can't understand how to really be responsible, through the element of initiative (ārabbhadhātū — AN 6.38 / SA 459).

And that gerund stuff of yours, was just a minor useless red herring and derailing.
So I could care less about PMing about that any longer.
.
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: 📍Sectarian Tenets, AN 3.61 (Week of October 17, 2021)

Post by Ceisiwr »

Well that escalated.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: 📍Sectarian Tenets, AN 3.61 (Week of October 17, 2021)

Post by Coëmgenu »

ToVincent obviously has trouble when someone questions his questionable analyses. It's a gerund.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Sam Vara
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Re: 📍Sectarian Tenets, AN 3.61 (Week of October 17, 2021)

Post by Sam Vara »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:34 pm Well that escalated.
Indeed! And I never even got an answer to my question! :)
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Sam Vara
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Re: 📍Sectarian Tenets, AN 3.61 (Week of October 17, 2021)

Post by Sam Vara »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:38 pm ToVincent obviously has trouble when someone questions his questionable analyses. It's a gerund.
Well, that's what I thought. Along with Warder, Meiland, the PED, some bloke called Pind, and our own Assaji.

But what do I know? :shrug:
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Coëmgenu
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Re: 📍Sectarian Tenets, AN 3.61 (Week of October 17, 2021)

Post by Coëmgenu »

Apparently little, along with a list of well-established scholars independently committed to a useless red herring that derails. Go figure.

:rolleye:
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
ToVincent
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Re: 📍Sectarian Tenets, AN 3.61 (Week of October 17, 2021)

Post by ToVincent »

And ToVincent continues to say — as shown in a previous post — that paṭicca/pratītya can be a gerund, or a future past participle, or even a noun.
And that it does not really matter if you say :
"A deed that will to be returned to him" (fpp.) - [my preferred translation],
or
"A deed returning to him" (abs.) —
as in AN 8.12 (cited above);
The ascetic Gotama knowingly uses meat obtained from an animal killed especially for his sake, a deed that will come back at him (viz. to be returned to him);
as long as you use the right meaning of paṭicca, which is "come back", "return to", ("confirmation" - "resort to" - known, understood; etc).

And this part is not derailing the thread - because paccaya has exactly this underlying meaning. Paccaya means "feedback", as seen before.
So in AN 3.61, hetu and paccaya should not be translated as cause and condition - but as cause and feedback.
Which would make those philosophasters' endless pages on cause VS condition worthless. Absolutely worthless.
Maybe this is what bothers some around this forum - Isn't it?
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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confusedlayman
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Re: 📍Sectarian Tenets, AN 3.61 (Week of October 17, 2021)

Post by confusedlayman »

SDC wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:27 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:25 pm origin of thought due to ignorance is house builder...
One of my favorite verses!!! :thumbsup:
How to work on that?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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SDC
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Re: 📍Sectarian Tenets, AN 3.61 (Week of October 17, 2021)

Post by SDC »

confusedlayman wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:05 am
SDC wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:27 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:25 pm origin of thought due to ignorance is house builder...
One of my favorite verses!!! :thumbsup:
How to work on that?
Eightfold Path :sage: :tongue:
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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