🟧 Sāriputta's Lion's Roar, SN 47.12 and a drop of DN 28 (Week of 12/19/21)

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🟧 Sāriputta's Lion's Roar, SN 47.12 and a drop of DN 28 (Week of 12/19/21)

Post by SDC »

:reading:


A curious little discourse this week in SN 47.12, where we find Sāriputta boldly claiming the Blessed One to be more knowledgeable than any other ascetic or brahmin - past, future or present - with respect to enlightenment. A seemingly baffled Buddha immediately gets on his chief disciple’s case for making this “bellowing utterance” and interrogates him thoroughly in order to understand why Sāriputta, being unable to encompass the minds of the Blessed Ones from the past, future and present, is roaring this lion’s roar. A curious answer, along with a well-known simile bring this discourse to a close, and we find the Buddha pleased with how the claim has been justified - even going as far as to say that this exposition should be frequently recited to further abandonment of perplexity and doubt.

I must admit that initially I was displeased with how this sutta came together at the end. It felt a bit incomplete. Though digging through its big brother DN 28 (the account is also in DN 16), there is a nice short bit that serves as a useful supplement to this curious exchange. It begs the question though: why doesn't it appear in SN 47.12?

Enjoy. :smile:
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📍 Sāriputta's Lion's Roar, SN 47.12 and a drop of DN 28 (Week of 12/19/21)

Post by SDC »

:reading:



Saṁyutta Nikāya
Nālandasutta SN 47.12 (PTS 5.159–5.161)
Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi


  • On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Nalanda in Pavarika’s Mango Grove. Then the Venerable Sāriputta approached the Blessed One, paid homage to him, sat down to one side, and said to him:

    “Venerable sir, I have such confidence in the Blessed One that I believe there has not been nor ever will be nor exists at present another ascetic or brahmin more knowledgeable than the Blessed One with respect to enlightenment.”

    “Lofty indeed is this bellowing utterance of yours, Sāriputta, you have roared a definitive, categorical lion’s roar: ‘Venerable sir, I have such confidence in the Blessed One that I believe there has not been nor ever will be nor exists at present another ascetic or brahmin more knowledgeable than the Blessed One with respect to enlightenment.’ Have you now, Sāriputta, encompassed with your mind the minds of all the Arahants, the Perfectly Enlightened Ones, arisen in the past and known thus: ‘Those Blessed Ones were of such virtue, or of such qualities, or of such wisdom, or of such dwellings, or of such liberation’?”

    “No, venerable sir.”

    “Then, Sāriputta, have you encompassed with your mind the minds of all the Arahants, the Perfectly Enlightened Ones, who will arise in the future and known thus: ‘Those Blessed Ones will be of such virtue, or of such qualities, or of such wisdom, or of such dwellings, or of such liberation’?”

    “No, venerable sir.”

    “Then, Sāriputta, have you encompassed with your mind my own mind—I being at present the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One—and known thus: ‘The Blessed One is of such virtue, or of such qualities, or of such wisdom, or of such dwellings, or of such liberation’?”

    “No, venerable sir.”

    “Sāriputta, when you do not have any knowledge encompassing the minds of the Arahants, the Perfectly Enlightened Ones of the past, the future, and the present, why do you utter this lofty, bellowing utterance and roar this definitive, categorical lion’s roar: ‘Venerable sir, I have such confidence in the Blessed One that I believe there has not been nor ever will be nor exists at present another ascetic or brahmin more knowledgeable than the Blessed One with respect to enlightenment’?”

    “I do not have, venerable sir, any knowledge encompassing the minds of the Arahants, the Perfectly Enlightened Ones of the past, the future, and the present, but still I have understood this by inference from the Dhamma. Suppose, venerable sir, a king had a frontier city with strong ramparts, walls, and arches, and with a single gate. The gatekeeper posted there would be wise, competent, and intelligent; one who keeps out strangers and admits acquaintances. While he is walking along the path that encircles the city he would not see a cleft or an opening in the walls even big enough for a cat to slip through. He might think: ‘Whatever large creatures enter or leave this city, all enter and leave through this one gate.’

    “So too, venerable sir, I have understood this by inference from the Dhamma: Whatever Arahants, Perfectly Enlightened Ones arose in the past, all those Blessed Ones had first abandoned the five hindrances, corruptions of the mind and weakeners of wisdom; and then, with their minds well established in the four establishments of mindfulness, they had developed correctly the seven factors of enlightenment; and thereby they had awakened to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment. And, venerable sir, whatever Arahants, Perfectly Enlightened Ones will arise in the future, all those Blessed Ones will first abandon the five hindrances, corruptions of the mind and weakeners of wisdom; and then, with their minds well established in the four establishments of mindfulness, they will develop correctly the seven factors of enlightenment; and thereby they will awaken to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment. And, venerable sir, the Blessed One, who is at present the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, first abandoned the five hindrances, corruptions of the mind and weakeners of wisdom; and then, with his mind well established in the four establishments of mindfulness, he developed correctly the seven factors of enlightenment; and thereby he has awakened to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment.”

    “Good, good, Sāriputta! Therefore, Sāriputta, you should repeat this Dhamma exposition frequently to the bhikkhus and the bhikkhunis, to the male lay followers and the female lay followers. Even though some foolish people may have perplexity or uncertainty regarding the Tathagata, when they hear this Dhamma exposition their perplexity or uncertainty regarding the Tathagata will be abandoned.”
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📍 Sāriputta's Lion's Roar, SN 47.12 and a drop of DN 28 (Week of 12/19/21)

Post by SDC »

📚


Thoughts?

  • On the matter of inference: according to Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes, Sāriputta is basing this inference upon his personal understanding of the Dhamma and the extent to which he knows the perfected state. I'm taking this as Sāriputta being unable to find - as the simile suggests - any gray areas that the Buddha may have missed when it comes to knowledge of enlightenment.
  • Any further thoughts on this rather well-known simile? What do you think is meant by "large creatures"? As far as I can tell, a large creature would be an additional approach to enlightenment as significant as the major three mentioned: mindfulness, hindrances, and seven factors. I think Sāriputta is saying that there is no room for anything else; or at least nothing else that would disrupt the necessary order of development described here. Having been able to come to this conclusion, he knows for sure that none could ever do more. This is where I think DN 28 settles the matter fully.
  • DN 28 wrote:...
    Sir, if they were to ask me, ‘Reverend Sāriputta, is there any other ascetic or brahmin—whether past, future, or present—whose direct knowledge is superior to the Buddha when it comes to awakening?’ I would tell them ‘No.’

    But if they were to ask me, ‘Reverend Sāriputta, is there any other ascetic or brahmin—whether past or future—whose direct knowledge is equal to the Buddha when it comes to awakening?’ I would tell them ‘Yes.’ But if they were to ask: ‘Reverend Sāriputta, is there any other ascetic or brahmin at present whose direct knowledge is equal to the Buddha when it comes to awakening?’ I would tell them ‘No.’

    But if they were to ask me, ‘But why does Venerable Sāriputta grant this in respect of some but not others?’ I would answer them like this, ‘Reverends, I have heard and learned this in the presence of the Buddha: “The perfected ones, fully awakened Buddhas of the past and the future are equal to myself when it comes to awakening.” And I have also heard and learned this in the presence of the Buddha: “It’s impossible for two perfected ones, fully awakened Buddhas to arise in the same solar system at the same time.”’...
    Here Sāriputta is clear that he would say none - whether past, future or present - is superior, but that there are those - both past and future - that are equal, i.e. Buddhas of the past and future.

    So I really do not think we need DN 28 (or DN 16) to make sense of SN 47.12. The simile is pretty solid and looks to be more than enough for the Buddha to give his blessing for this exposition to be given often. Though we have to wonder, with the accounts being essentially identical (DN 28 just more elaborate as BB notes), why this shorter version without the little bit about the past and future Buddhas being equal? Seems to be a pretty big piece of the puzzle.
Looking forward to this week's discussion. :smile:
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Re: 📍 Sāriputta's Lion's Roar, SN 47.12 and a drop of DN 28 (Week of 12/19/21)

Post by Joe.c »

I think one needs to understand the pali word of
dhammanvayo
This word doesn’t only mean regular inference. It is more direct personal experience/personal insight in their personal daily life (not only meditation). One probably can read MN 89 Dhammacetiya Sutta which show King Pasenadi direct experience on Buddha Teaching. This word dhammanvayo also can be found there.

Hence all devotee of the Buddha (Ariya) has an unshakable confidence with Buddha, Dhamma and Ariya Sangha. They have view that is straight. They personally know that the path lead to liberation is only Ariya 8Fold path. So when Buddha stated something, they investigate whether it is directly stated by Buddha or not, find out the meaning. If it is said by Buddha, they will practice it to develop additional skillful characters to reach freedom.

In Sariputta case, as an Arahant, one should have direct experience on freedom or Nibbana at that time and know the path. So it is not merely a statement or teaching of Buddha only. He directly knows for a person to reach freedom, one needs:
To give up the five hindrances, corruptions of the mind (cetaso) that blocking wisdom. Their Citta/mind needs to firmly established in the four foundations of introspection. Then, they fully developed the seven awakening factors
But one needs to have a Right view first to experience the teaching. Otherwise, a common worldling (puthujjana) may think they know the teaching or have practiced the teaching. But in fact they have not even start the teaching. More to go in Samsara, while there might/might not be a teaching in future.

:candle:
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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Re: 📍 Sāriputta's Lion's Roar, SN 47.12 and a drop of DN 28 (Week of 12/19/21)

Post by Pulsar »

Dearest SDC thanks for this excerpt from Nalanda sutta.
  • Whatever Arahants, Perfectly Enlightened Ones arose in the past, all those Blessed Ones
  • had first abandoned the five hindrances, corruptions of the mind and weakeners of wisdom;
  • and then, with their minds well established in the four establishments of mindfulness,
  • they had developed correctly the seven factors of enlightenment; and thereby they had awakened to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment
Now that hit a spot. Awakening in a nutshell.
With love :candle:
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Re: 📍 Sāriputta's Lion's Roar, SN 47.12 and a drop of DN 28 (Week of 12/19/21)

Post by mjaviem »

This sutta says there are no holes in the Buddha's teachings. The path to enlightenment is the correct one. Have confidence this is the only way, the right way.

Homage to the Blessed One, the Perfected One, the Fully Awakened One.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
Pulsar
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Re: 📍 Sāriputta's Lion's Roar, SN 47.12 and a drop of DN 28 (Week of 12/19/21)

Post by Pulsar »

This sutta says there are no holes in the Buddha's teachings.
Of course My Dearest mjaviem. There are those Vibajjavadins who compiled suttas like DN 22/MN10
and created holes, in the Dhamma. True Dhamma on the 4 establishments of mindfulness can be found
in SN 47.42.
In the true teachings of Buddha that did not rely on Upanishadic Arupas, the teaching
is flawless.
Does not the Ani Sutta says that the Buddha predicted later Sangha will drive nails through the drum of Dhamma,
so its sound will become fainter, a subject for another day.
Joe.c wrote
To give up hindrances one needs Right View
Is it not already understood that the hindrances cannot be given up without cycling
through the 8-fold path? at least up to the 4 establishments of Mindfulness?
Another excerpt from Nalanda sutta
“Good, good, Sāriputta! Therefore, Sāriputta, you should repeat this Dhamma exposition frequently to the bhikkhus and the bhikkhunis, to the male lay followers and the female lay followers. Even though some foolish people may have perplexity or uncertainty regarding the Tathagata, when they hear this Dhamma exposition their perplexity or uncertainty regarding the Tathagata will be abandoned.”
Thanks SDC we should be repeating suttas like this until our eyes open to the Dhamma further.

With love :candle:
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Re: 📍 Sāriputta's Lion's Roar, SN 47.12 and a drop of DN 28 (Week of 12/19/21)

Post by Joe.c »

Pulsar wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 12:06 pm Joe.c wrote
To give up hindrances one needs Right View
Is it not already understood that the hindrances cannot be given up without cycling
through the 8-fold path? at least up to the 4 establishments of Mindfulness?
Let just say many know, but most people skips the steps. The most important part is to understand what To have right View is.

Almost all people now do meditation (sati) without right view, good morality and guarding senses.

I think it is just become a fruitless effort in this life for most people

Shouldnt everyone try to strive to be a stream enterer first by hearing dhamma? :shrug:
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
Pulsar
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Re: 📍 Sāriputta's Lion's Roar, SN 47.12 and a drop of DN 28 (Week of 12/19/21)

Post by Pulsar »

Dear SDC, you asked about large creatures? this term
large creatures
is not found in the corresponding agama version of SN 47.42.
In the pali version ie SN 47.12 when Sariputta is questioned by the Buddha, the chief disciple responds:
“I do not have, venerable sir, any knowledge encompassing the minds of the Arahants,
the Perfectly Enlightened Ones of the past, the future, and the present,
but still I have understood this by inference from the Dhamma."
"Suppose, venerable sir, a king had a frontier city with strong ramparts, walls, and arches, and with a single gate. The gatekeeper posted there would be wise, competent, and intelligent; one who keeps out strangers and admits acquaintances. While he is walking along the path that encircles the city he would not see a cleft or an opening in the walls even big enough for a cat to slip through. He might think: ‘Whatever large creatures enter or leave this city, all enter and leave through this one gate."
In the corresponding agama version (SA 498), the narrative runs like this:
The Buddha said to Sariputra,
"If you do not know all the dharmas in the hearts of the Buddhas, in the past, in the future, and in the present. How can you praise someone like this? How can you say, "I am convinced, World Honored One, that among all the sramanas and brahmans of the past and the present, there is none equal to His Holiness' bodhi, let alone superior"?
Sariputra replies
"Your Holiness! I cannot know the unity of the minds of all the Buddhas in the past, in the present, and in the present, but I can know the unity of the Dharma of all the Buddhas".
"World Honored One! There is only one gate, and there is no second gate,
and there is a gatekeeper, and the people enter and leave through this gate,
and if they enter or leave, the gatekeeper, though he does not know the number of people,
knows that the people come only through this gate, and nowhere else.
Thus, I know that all the Buddhas of the past, like the present Buddha, the Supreme Being, of Equal Enlightenment, have broken the five distracting minds, the five distressing minds, and awakened to the enlightening factors"
Sariputta's response in the agama version
  • "but I can know the unity of the Dharma of all the Buddhas"
I was blown away by that response.
Merry Xmas. :candle:
🎄🎄🤶
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Re: 📍 Sāriputta's Lion's Roar, SN 47.12 and a drop of DN 28 (Week of 12/19/21)

Post by SDC »

Pulsar wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 4:33 pm Dear SDC, you asked about large creatures? this term
large creatures
is not found in the corresponding agama version of SN 47.42.
In the pali version ie SN 47.12 when Sariputta is questioned by the Buddha, the chief disciple responds:
“I do not have, venerable sir, any knowledge encompassing the minds of the Arahants,
the Perfectly Enlightened Ones of the past, the future, and the present,
but still I have understood this by inference from the Dhamma."
"Suppose, venerable sir, a king had a frontier city with strong ramparts, walls, and arches, and with a single gate. The gatekeeper posted there would be wise, competent, and intelligent; one who keeps out strangers and admits acquaintances. While he is walking along the path that encircles the city he would not see a cleft or an opening in the walls even big enough for a cat to slip through. He might think: ‘Whatever large creatures enter or leave this city, all enter and leave through this one gate."
In the corresponding agama version (SA 498), the narrative runs like this:
The Buddha said to Sariputra,
"If you do not know all the dharmas in the hearts of the Buddhas, in the past, in the future, and in the present. How can you praise someone like this? How can you say, "I am convinced, World Honored One, that among all the sramanas and brahmans of the past and the present, there is none equal to His Holiness' bodhi, let alone superior"?
Sariputra replies
"Your Holiness! I cannot know the unity of the minds of all the Buddhas in the past, in the present, and in the present, but I can know the unity of the Dharma of all the Buddhas".
"World Honored One! There is only one gate, and there is no second gate,
and there is a gatekeeper, and the people enter and leave through this gate,
and if they enter or leave, the gatekeeper, though he does not know the number of people,
knows that the people come only through this gate, and nowhere else.
Thus, I know that all the Buddhas of the past, like the present Buddha, the Supreme Being, of Equal Enlightenment, have broken the five distracting minds, the five distressing minds, and awakened to the enlightening factors"
Sariputta's response in the agama version
  • "but I can know the unity of the Dharma of all the Buddhas"
I was blown away by that response.
Merry Xmas. :candle:
🎄🎄🤶
Interesting difference there in the agama version. Thanks for pulling that out, Pulsar.

A perfect note to end this week and begin our two week break.

Happy Holidays to All! 🎄
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