🟧 “Some feelings, Sīvaka…”, SN 36.21 (Week of 2/13/22)

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🟧 “Some feelings, Sīvaka…”, SN 36.21 (Week of 2/13/22)

Post by SDC »

:reading:


In an attempt to clarify the doctrine and view that whatever a person experiences is the result of what was done in the past, the following discourse describes all eight causes of experiences that are either pleasant, unpleasant or neither-painful-nor-pleasant. Although the Buddha does declare outright that past action can certainly be one such cause, there are also specific experiences that may have nothing directly to do with it - such as disorders and imbalances in the body, climate, assault and careless behavior. Bhikkhu Bodhi notes, however, that while these other specific experiences may be exempt, in a sense, from the direct waves of fruit of past action, the Buddha does not deny the possibility that the illnesses themselves, which are the proximate cause of these certain discomforts, are the result. As he puts it, "Thus kamma can still be the indirect cause for the painful feeling directly induced by the first seven causes." Though, this does imply some sense of a reprieve; responsibility; a place where there is choice; clearance perhaps, from that complete lack of control implied in this wrongly held view that the past dictates all feelings.

A fascinating sutta on many fronts, as it seems to be within this little bubble (of personal responsibility where results of the past cannot necessarily pervade fully) that presents the opportunity for development towards freedom from suffering. We touched on this a few weeks ago in our study of AN 3.61 (a sutta that BB notes is a good companion to this, along with MN 101), where it is made clear that holding a wrong view such as the one being investigated in this week's selection will directly block the opportunity for progress.

As I read it, if all feelings are vipaka (result of [past] action) then freedom from suffering would not be possible. What does everyone else think? A broad question, no doubt, but please respond on the basis of this sutta (or one that directly relates).

Enjoy. :smile:



:reading:


Saṁyutta Nikāya
Sīvakasutta (Sīvaka) SN 36.21 (PTS 4.230–4.231)
Translated by Ven. Bodhi


  • On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrel Sanctuary. Then the wanderer Moḷiyasīvaka approached the Blessed One and exchanged greetings with him. When they had concluded their greetings and cordial talk, he sat down to one side and said to the Blessed One:

    “Master Gotama, there are some ascetics and brahmins who hold such a doctrine and view as this: ‘Whatever a person experiences, whether it be pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, all that is caused by what was done in the past.’ What does Master Gotama say about this?”

    “Some feelings, Sīvaka, arise here originating from bile disorders: that some feelings arise here originating from bile disorders one can know for oneself, and that is considered to be true in the world. Now when those ascetics and brahmins hold such a doctrine and view as this, ‘Whatever a person experiences, whether it be pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, all that is caused by what was done in the past,’ they overshoot what one knows by oneself and they overshoot what is considered to be true in the world. Therefore I say that this is wrong on the part of those ascetics and brahmins.

    “Some feelings, Sīvaka, arise here originating from phlegm disorders … originating from wind disorders … originating from an imbalance of the three … produced by change of climate … produced by careless behaviour … caused by assault … produced as the result of kamma: that some feelings arise here produced as the result of kamma one can know for oneself, and that is considered to be true in the world. Now when those ascetics and brahmins hold such a doctrine and view as this, ‘Whatever a person experiences, whether it be pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, all that is caused by what was done in the past,’ they overshoot what one knows by oneself and they overshoot what is considered to be true in the world. Therefore I say that this is wrong on the part of those ascetics and brahmins.”

    When this was said, the wanderer Moḷiyasīvaka said to the Blessed One: “Magnificent, Master Gotama! Magnificent, Master Gotama!… From today let Master Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge for life.”

    Bile, phlegm, and also wind,
    Imbalance and climate too,
    Carelessness and assault,
    With kamma result as the eighth.
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Re: 📍“Some feelings, Sīvaka…”, SN 36.21 (Week of 2/13/22)

Post by sunnat »

What matters to progress is the abandoning of craving and ignorance in relation to whatever feeling arises. So while the words of The Blessed One are correct, they deal with a mundane concern and not one that hinders progress. By not acting (kamma) kamma resultant (sankharas) of past kammas are eradicated. Where feelings are not a result of past kammas, the underlying tendencies in relation to feelings may still arise and, again, not acting eliminates the underlying tendencies,
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Re: 📍“Some feelings, Sīvaka…”, SN 36.21 (Week of 2/13/22)

Post by Sam Vara »

SDC wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 4:24 am :reading:
In an attempt to clarify the doctrine and view that whatever a person experiences is the result of what was done in the past, the following discourse describes all eight causes of experiences that are either pleasant, unpleasant or neither-painful-nor-pleasant. Although the Buddha does declare outright that past action can certainly be one such cause, there are also specific experiences that may have nothing directly to do with it - such as disorders and imbalances in the body, climate, assault and careless behavior. Bhikkhu Bodhi notes, however, that while these other specific experiences may be exempt, in a sense, from the direct waves of fruit of past action, the Buddha does not deny the possibility that the illnesses themselves, which are the proximate cause of these certain discomforts, are the result. As he puts it, "Thus kamma can still be the indirect cause for the painful feeling directly induced by the first seven causes."
It might be that our modern reliance on scientific explanations renders us incapable of understanding this aspect of what the Buddha meant by kamma. This would be one more way in which the Dhamma as a teaching has deteriorated, or, rather, one more way in which the alteration and corruption of our understanding has led to us falling away from it. If kamma can ever be the direct cause of what we experience, how would we ever recognise such a thing? How would kamma acting alone, unmediated through other causes, present itself to us? For whatever experience we have, we would tend to ascribe a cause to it which is in accordance with our medical or scientific understanding. We were injured, we got sick, we were poisoned, we were malnourished, our memories were stimulated by psychoanalysis or dreaming, our brains were stimulated by electrodes: these are the types of things that we would accept as plausible causes of any given experience. We might, as scientifically-aware modern Buddhists, accept or have faith that kamma might be the explanation for any of those happening so as to affect us, as per Bhikkhu Bodhi's caveat above. But what about the eighth cause? What would convince us to accept that?

This is something that Gombrich writes about in What the Buddha Thought. He says
One must realise that karma must operate through some specific cause; it is, as it were, the cause behind causes. In that sense the Buddha's answer to Moliyasīvaka is misleading, for karma and the other causes cited are not on the same level.

(WTBT, p. 21)


He refers to fieldwork in his first book, in which he tries to unravel how Sinhalese Buddhist villagers (presumably some time ago now!) view kamma. When illnesses befall them, they look first for the "obvious" causes, and try western medicine. That failing, they look to folk remedies, and thence to malign human influences like "black magic". Then demons, planetary influences, etc., and only then will they say that the effects of kamma are so strong that they over-ride the earlier steps taken.

I think it's quite possible - notwithstanding the list in the final verse - that the eight causes of experiences are not intended by the Buddha to be a complete list. Merely the Buddha pointing out to those without the Dhamma Eye that they are unable to see kamma in play (as he and others could, as per the second of the Tevijja:
I saw — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech & mind, who reviled the Noble Ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings — who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile the Noble Ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — I saw beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

...and they had better stick to what they know, rather than speculate about what is hidden from them. I think it is significant here that the Buddha says of that those claiming knowledge of the universal explanatory force of kamma:
they overshoot what one knows by oneself and they overshoot what is considered to be true in the world.
,

not that they are flat wrong about some of those causes.

For some reason that I haven't quite worked out, Gombrich thinks that the main force of the idea of kamma - both personally and historically, the latter being a bit less plausible a claim - is that it provides a perfect theodicy, a means of explaining why bad things happen to blameless people. If ultimately everything that we experience is the result of earlier actions, then all suffering is experienced by a being who is in some sense responsible for that.

So what experiences can we, trapped even more deeply in multiple explanations for experiences than Gombrich's fieldwork subjects, attribute solely to kamma? Perhaps all we have is our understanding that our present volitions have a huge part to play in experiences, and that such experiences do not merely impinge upon our passive consciousness from somewhere in the past:
Friend Niganthas, what do you think: When there is fierce striving, fierce exertion, do you feel fierce, sharp, racking pains from harsh treatment? And when there is no fierce striving, no fierce exertion, do you feel no fierce, sharp, racking pains from harsh treatment?'

"'Yes, friend...'

"'... Then it's not proper for you to assert that, "Whatever a person experiences — pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain — all is caused by what was done in the past.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Which, of course, Ajahn Thanissaro make such a fruitful use of.
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Re: 📍“Some feelings, Sīvaka…”, SN 36.21 (Week of 2/13/22)

Post by nirodh27 »

The Buddha seems to say that Kamma is visible and can be known from oneself by direct observation.
: that some feelings arise here produced as the result of kamma one can know for oneself, and that is considered to be true in the world
Kamma for me is (ethical) action so it can be seen that sensations can be influenced by those actions, but there are other reasons as well that depends on the non-ethical, like the nature of the body or careless behaviour that is non-ethical in nature (like making an incident due to distraction).

This is unquestionable, foolish to refute, all the world can see it and, more important, is sufficient, imho, to practice the Dhamma and seeing how Dukkha originates and ends.

Kamma is problematic only if a cosmological working of Kamma and trasmigration of beings is taken for granted and a continuity is imagined from one being to another being. That to me is a view like others and is not verifiable if one stays in his domain, the sabbe, the six sense spheres. Even if one have a superhuman vision, that would be a perception and it might still be false. Even if a child can remember past lifes giving perfect details, other reasons than being actually a continuity of another being can be imagined as well and there's no way to decide between the various options.

That is why I like the approach of the octads and some things that I find in the suttas feels like an evolution of the doctrine from the experiential domain, visible here and now to the cosmological and metaphysical, that is not verifiable from the only thing we can reasonably access, phenomena (as Kant have demostrated). In the suttas, it seems to me, we have both the kantian approach in which some things are unverifiable and it is better to stick to experience since it is there that Dukkha originates and ends (like in the sabbe sutta or in the octads) and a metaphisical approach that contradics this approach by positing a law that is unverifiable by phenomena alone.
Because of a view or an opinion
a Veda-master does not become conceited,
for he does not identify with them.
Not led by kamma or by what is heard,
he is not drawn to any abodes. (12)

847. “For one detached from perception there are no knots;
for one liberated by wisdom there are no delusions.
But those who have grasped perceptions and views
wander in the world creating friction.” (13)
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Re: 📍“Some feelings, Sīvaka…”, SN 36.21 (Week of 2/13/22)

Post by SDC »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 6:58 pm So what experiences can we, trapped even more deeply in multiple explanations for experiences than Gombrich's fieldwork subjects, attribute solely to kamma? Perhaps all we have is our understanding that our present volitions have a huge part to play in experiences, and that such experiences do not merely impinge upon our passive consciousness from somewhere in the past…
Hi Sam,

What I find interesting about this sutta is that it is about feelings in regard to experiences, an aspect that can be subjective/that affects people differently. What is unpleasant for one person might be pleasant for another - and although there are universally painful feelings (such as limbs being sawed off by highway robbers) that does not imply the same degree of suffering. Having said that, it does seem to come down to what a person is willing to accept as their responsibility - as being free and clear of past constraints. An unfortunate circumstance for one person is a reason to hold themselves together/keep their virtue and restraint, while another person takes it as a reason to fall apart and seek an escape through sensuality. The Buddha seems to want to make it clear - as you suggest - that it is unclear (for all but a Buddha) why a certain unpleasant experience has arisen and that no experience is an excuse to claim that the law of kamma has impeded the path, or rather, that it gets the final word in how they should respond.

“Careless behavior” (visamaparihāra) is also quite a broad cause. Just consider how much can fall under that category. Isn’t that essentially “wrong view” in action? Let’s look at it like this: a person is the victim of suffering to the extent that they crave pleasure and crave the absence of displeasure, and work to strike a constant “balance” between the two and the conditions responsible. Though, with the intent to keep that craving suspended (endure it), experiences that are pleasing, displeasing or neither no longer stand as the measure for “how things are going” for me. Instead, how well a person can keep virtue and restraint and composure amidst the experience that is displeasing is now the measure (until clarity and development take hold). I think careless behavior, which does not take into account the right things (wholesome directions), is a major factor in why comfort and balanced feelings determine how we feel about experience, i.e., why we are prey to suffering.

I think it is important that a person understands that opening where the course of things can be altered, and I think the description in this sutta provides that. As far as I can presume, the Buddha would’ve made sure the listener would be looking towards what can developed rather than at what the reasons are for it being there at all. Certainly, knowledge about the past is important or we are doomed to repeat it, but the work is on account of present suffering. As you say, present directions - wholesome and unwholesome - shape the experience, and instead of trying to understand how it got that way, it is probably best to surmount them instead.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: 📍“Some feelings, Sīvaka…”, SN 36.21 (Week of 2/13/22)

Post by Sam Vara »

SDC wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 7:44 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 6:58 pm So what experiences can we, trapped even more deeply in multiple explanations for experiences than Gombrich's fieldwork subjects, attribute solely to kamma? Perhaps all we have is our understanding that our present volitions have a huge part to play in experiences, and that such experiences do not merely impinge upon our passive consciousness from somewhere in the past…
Hi Sam,

What I find interesting about this sutta is that it is about feelings in regard to experiences, an aspect that can be subjective/that affects people differently. What is unpleasant for one person might be pleasant for another - and although there are universally painful feelings (such as limbs being sawed off by highway robbers) that does not imply the same degree of suffering. Having said that, it does seem to come down to what a person is willing to accept as their responsibility - as being free and clear of past constraints. An unfortunate circumstance for one person is a reason to hold themselves together/keep their virtue and restraint, while another person takes it as a reason to fall apart and seek an escape through sensuality. The Buddha seems to want to make it clear - as you suggest - that it is unclear (for all but a Buddha) why a certain unpleasant experience has arisen and that no experience is an excuse to claim that the law of kamma has impeded the path, or rather, that it gets the final word in how they should respond.
Many thanks, SDC. :anjali: I like your bit about how unfortunate circumstances are dealt with differently by different people. I sat and thought about that for quite some time, especially as I've just had quite a difficult afternoon here and didn't acquit myself at all well!
“Careless behavior” (visamaparihāra) is also quite a broad cause. Just consider how much can fall under that category. Isn’t that essentially “wrong view” in action? Let’s look at it like this: a person is the victim of suffering to the extent that they crave pleasure and crave the absence of displeasure, and work to strike a constant “balance” between the two and the conditions responsible. Though, with the intent to keep that craving suspended (endure it), experiences that are pleasing, displeasing or neither no longer stand as the measure for “how things are going” for me. Instead, how well a person can keep virtue and restraint and composure amidst the experience that is displeasing is now the measure (until clarity and development take hold). I think careless behavior, which does not take into account the right things (wholesome directions), is a major factor in why comfort and balanced feelings determine how we feel about experience, i.e., why we are prey to suffering.
That's also very interesting. I don't remember encountering the term visamparihāra elsewhere, and previously thought that it referred only to one's care of the body, as in diet, sleep patterns, seeking medical attention, etc. I'm sure I've seen it explained as that in several contexts, and indeed Gombrich sees it as purely medical. Of course, it is wider than that. But wouldn't broadening it out too far run the risk of trespassing into kamma? That what we do - acting on wrong view, working to keep that balance you describe - is essentially intentional?
As far as I can presume, the Buddha would’ve made sure the listener would be looking towards what can developed rather than at what the reasons are for it being there at all. Certainly, knowledge about the past is important or we are doomed to repeat it, but the work is on account of present suffering.
Agreed. Gombrich again:
The Buddha's teaching of kamma was a moral exhortation. So it is intended to be seen from the front, to be taken as an answer to the question 'How should I behave?' Since people are lazy, and tend to be more interested in saying 'How did I get into this mess - surely it was not my fault?' the tendency has always been, probably from the Buddha's day until now, to see the same doctrine from the other end, backwards.
which is, of course, what Sīvaka was doing.
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Re: 📍“Some feelings, Sīvaka…”, SN 36.21 (Week of 2/13/22)

Post by SDC »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 9:04 pm
“Careless behavior” (visamaparihāra) is also quite a broad cause. Just consider how much can fall under that category. Isn’t that essentially “wrong view” in action? Let’s look at it like this: a person is the victim of suffering to the extent that they crave pleasure and crave the absence of displeasure, and work to strike a constant “balance” between the two and the conditions responsible. Though, with the intent to keep that craving suspended (endure it), experiences that are pleasing, displeasing or neither no longer stand as the measure for “how things are going” for me. Instead, how well a person can keep virtue and restraint and composure amidst the experience that is displeasing is now the measure (until clarity and development take hold). I think careless behavior, which does not take into account the right things (wholesome directions), is a major factor in why comfort and balanced feelings determine how we feel about experience, i.e., why we are prey to suffering.
That's also very interesting. I don't remember encountering the term visamparihāra elsewhere, and previously thought that it referred only to one's care of the body, as in diet, sleep patterns, seeking medical attention, etc. I'm sure I've seen it explained as that in several contexts, and indeed Gombrich sees it as purely medical. Of course, it is wider than that. But wouldn't broadening it out too far run the risk of trespassing into kamma? That what we do - acting on wrong view, working to keep that balance you describe - is essentially intentional?
Just a quick response for now…I didn’t intent to broaden the meaning beyond care of the body, though I see why it was taken that way. I was just pointing out how wrong view is the reason for such carelessness when it comes to feelings. Nevertheless, I do think it is very broad when you take into consideration all the ways the body can be physically treated in a careless manner.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: 📍“Some feelings, Sīvaka…”, SN 36.21 (Week of 2/13/22)

Post by SDC »

nirodh27 wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 11:07 am Kamma is problematic only if a cosmological working of Kamma and trasmigration of beings is taken for granted and a continuity is imagined from one being to another being. That to me is a view like others and is not verifiable if one stays in his domain, the sabbe, the six sense spheres. Even if one have a superhuman vision, that would be a perception and it might still be false. Even if a child can remember past lifes giving perfect details, other reasons than being actually a continuity of another being can be imagined as well and there's no way to decide between the various options.

That is why I like the approach of the octads and some things that I find in the suttas feels like an evolution of the doctrine from the experiential domain, visible here and now to the cosmological and metaphysical, that is not verifiable from the only thing we can reasonably access, phenomena (as Kant have demostrated). In the suttas, it seems to me, we have both the kantian approach in which some things are unverifiable and it is better to stick to experience since it is there that Dukkha originates and ends (like in the sabbe sutta or in the octads) and a metaphisical approach that contradics this approach by positing a law that is unverifiable by phenomena alone.
Because of a view or an opinion
a Veda-master does not become conceited,
for he does not identify with them.
Not led by kamma or by what is heard,
he is not drawn to any abodes. (12)

847. “For one detached from perception there are no knots;
for one liberated by wisdom there are no delusions.
But those who have grasped perceptions and views
wander in the world creating friction.” (13)
Hi nirodh27,

Love that bit about detachment from perception. Reminds me of this sutta also (@SV touched on it as well):
SN 35.146 wrote: And what, bhikkhus, is old kamma? The eye is old kamma, to be seen as generated and fashioned by volition, as something to be felt. The ear is old kamma … The mind is old kamma, to be seen as generated and fashioned by volition, as something to be felt. This is called old kamma.

“And what, bhikkhus is new kamma? Whatever action one does now by body, speech, or mind. This is called new kamma.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the cessation of kamma? When one reaches liberation through the cessation of bodily action, verbal action, and mental action, this is called the cessation of kamma.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the way leading to the cessation of kamma? It is this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.
As I’m reading it, kamma is action on account of the six sense base and with some intent/for some benefit. From the point of view of ignorance, a person - being their own - acts for themselves, for their own benefit. A noble disciple can - if they so choose - acts for the gain of freedom from suffering. Both deal in perception and views, the former for accomplishment in sensuality and the latter for escape from suffering. It would seem bodily, verbal and mental action cease when they no longer apply to existence. Since there is no chance for birth in the case of the arahant, no current action has the potential to alter that freedom and flip the experience back into any abode.

Come to think of it, repetitive unwholesome action does solidify how a situation will be understood next time around, so it begs the question: when it comes to unwholesome behavior, does the constant engagement in those behaviors make it harder to resist the unpleasant feeling the next time it arises? Lust for instance. If we always give in, does the unpleasant feeling of not engaging become stronger/harder to resist? In such a case, “what was done in the past” is a strong determining factor for how it is experienced the next time it arises. Silly me for not addressing this in the OP… 🤦‍♂️
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: 📍“Some feelings, Sīvaka…”, SN 36.21 (Week of 2/13/22)

Post by pegembara »

As I read it, if all feelings are vipaka (result of [past] action) then freedom from suffering would not be possible. What does everyone else think? A broad question, no doubt, but please respond on the basis of this sutta (or one that directly relates).
If you want to be happy, just do good?
It's complicated and cannot be fully relied on.
"There are these four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four?

"The Buddha-range of the Buddhas[1] is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"The jhana-range of a person in jhana...[2]

"The [precise working out of the] results of kamma...

"Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"These are the four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them."

Acintita Sutta: Unconjecturable
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Re: 📍“Some feelings, Sīvaka…”, SN 36.21 (Week of 2/13/22)

Post by mjaviem »

SDC wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 4:24 am :... What does everyone else think? A broad question, no doubt, but please respond on the basis of this sutta (or one that directly relates).
...
Bile, phlegm, and also wind,
Imbalance and climate too,
Carelessness and assault,
With kamma result as the eighth.[/list]
... Bile disorders...
phlegm disorders … originating from wind disorders … originating from an imbalance of the three … produced by change of climate … produced by careless behaviour … caused by assault … produced as the result of kamma:...
I think change of climate is for example when it gets really cold or really hot or perfectly cool with the right humidity and atmospheric pressure on a spring or autumn afternoon.. Careless behavior when for example being barefoot you step on a broken glass. Assault I think is for example when you get bitten by a spider The result of kamma when for example...

... you feel the results of for example having kept animals in cages. Disorders and imbalances I think it means disease
Last edited by mjaviem on Thu Feb 17, 2022 3:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 📍“Some feelings, Sīvaka…”, SN 36.21 (Week of 2/13/22)

Post by nirodh27 »

SDC wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 11:00 pm It would seem bodily, verbal and mental action cease when they no longer apply to existence. Since there is no chance for birth in the case of the arahant, no current action has the potential to alter that freedom and flip the experience back into any abode.
I see that you will not engage in the pars destruens of my argument :tongue:

But what if we use instead "Since there is no desire for birth in the case of the arahant, no current desire has the potential to alter that freedom and flip the experience back into any abode". :smile:
SDC wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 11:00 pm If we always give in, does the unpleasant feeling of not engaging become stronger/harder to resist?
When the pleasure will be negated, yes, the pain will be more sharp and acute the more and more we take pleasure in what we think/do. Btw if we resist, a better value judgement is already in action, so if the pleasure is negated by events not under your control, rage or sharp sadness would be the response, while if we resist due to a spark of sati/wisdom the pain of not-engaging is lessened by the wisdom, since you give some value to your non-engaging. Even if sometimes it feels like to have two kind of selfs inside you, that is actually a little true since we have 3 kind of brains that belongs to different stages of evolution. It actually takes a lot of sampajanno (and pleasure of jhana for greater renunciations) to have right view to incide, to "speak" at your more ancestral and animal part of the brain.
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Re: 📍“Some feelings, Sīvaka…”, SN 36.21 (Week of 2/13/22)

Post by SDC »

nirodh27 wrote: Thu Feb 17, 2022 5:15 pm I see that you will not engage in the pars destruens of my argument :tongue:
Unfortunately my time is very limited this week. Next time… ;)
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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