EBT-People Don't Have a Base. (An Evidence)

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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A. Bhikkhu
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Re: EBT-People Don't Have a Base. (An Evidence)

Post by A. Bhikkhu »

frank k wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 11:26 am I'd like to look at the commentary again. Does it actually say 5 senses are shut off? Or does it simply say both mental desire, and physical objects of desire are not present in that moment?
Greetings in Dhamma, Frank!
I think Ā. Guṇaratana, in his "Critical Analysis of the Jhānas", has translated and discussed the relevant passage quite faithfully. Rupert Gethin's "The Buddhist Path to Awakening" also takes it up, when I remember correctly. Just some references off the top of my head ... :)

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Re: EBT-People Don't Have a Base. (An Evidence)

Post by frank k »

Thanks Bhante, but could you be more specific? I downloaded Bhante G's book, and only so far see this passage that I have seen before in Vism., the Tika subcmy for the first jhāna simile.
This statement raises the question how mental qualities like rapture and happiness can suffuse a physical substance like the body. The subcommentary provides an answer. It says that “the material form produced by consciousness suffuses every area where there is material form produced by kamma.”1 (Wr. tr.). The “material form produced by kamma” is the yogi’s physical body. The physical body contains material phenomena of four modes of origination; that is, material phenomena produced by kamma ( kammaja.

rūpa. ), by consciousness ( cittaja. rūpa. ), by temperature ( utuja. rūpa. ), and by food ( āhāraja. rūpa. ).2 When the yogin attains to jhāna, the jhāna consciousness produces a subtle kind of material form which suffuses his physical body. Since this material form is produced by a consciousness associated with rapture and happiness, the impression is created that rapture and happiness themselves suffuse the whole physical body.
What part of the book talks about the cmy for kāmehi as 'object of desire, not desire', and viveka from kāmehi as '5 senses shut down'?

metta,
Frank

A. Bhikkhu wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 4:30 pm
frank k wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 11:26 am I'd like to look at the commentary again. Does it actually say 5 senses are shut off? Or does it simply say both mental desire, and physical objects of desire are not present in that moment?
Greetings in Dhamma, Frank!
I think Ā. Guṇaratana, in his "Critical Analysis of the Jhānas", has translated and discussed the relevant passage quite faithfully. Rupert Gethin's "The Buddhist Path to Awakening" also takes it up, when I remember correctly. Just some references off the top of my head ... :)

Mettā 2u!
A. Bhikkhu
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frank k
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Re: EBT-People Don't Have a Base. (An Evidence)

Post by frank k »

you wrote in an earlier message:
It also stands in relation to vivicca akusalehi dhammehi, which, obviously, must refer to the mental aspect alongside the preceding physical, perfectly in line with, for example, the Itivuttaka commentary quoted earlier ...
I looked at the Iti 72 cmy translation that you quoted again, and don't follow how that implies 5 senses shutdown. It only says that if one has been secluded from desire for an object, one must also be secluded from that object also. If you go into the forest to be secluded from objects of desire, that does not imply your 5 senses are shut down as soon as you entered the forest and are physically some distance from objects of desire. As another example, if chocolate cake is sitting in front of you and you close your eyes and plug up your nose, you've just physically secluded yourself from being able to detect the cake, but your 5 senses are not shut down.

As far as vivicca akusalehi dhammehi, I agree with Abhidhamma Vb., which says askusala dhamma represent all 5 hindrances in that first jhāna, and I would say even whatever other akusala 5 hindrances does not cover. The reason kamehi is redundantly and listed first, is the same reason as everywhere else in the suttas where kāma is conspicuously listed first, always public enemy #1 and deserves special mention and attention.

But just like with Iti 72, even if you say kāmehi is physical and akusala dhamma is mental, what exactly is the part you're interpreting 5 senses being shut off?

metta, Frank

A. Bhikkhu wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 4:30 pm
frank k wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 11:26 am I'd like to look at the commentary again. Does it actually say 5 senses are shut off? Or does it simply say both mental desire, and physical objects of desire are not present in that moment?
Greetings in Dhamma, Frank!
I think Ā. Guṇaratana, in his "Critical Analysis of the Jhānas", has translated and discussed the relevant passage quite faithfully. Rupert Gethin's "The Buddhist Path to Awakening" also takes it up, when I remember correctly. Just some references off the top of my head ... :)

Mettā 2u!
A. Bhikkhu
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Re: EBT-People Don't Have a Base. (An Evidence)

Post by A. Bhikkhu »

frank k wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 8:36 am [...] metta, Frank
Dear Frank,
let's continue later. I definitely want to delve deeper into this important subject, and likely there will be another occasion to discuss it on Dhammawheel or somewhere else.

Mettā 2u!
Ṭhānuttamo
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Re: EBT-People Don't Have a Base. (An Evidence)

Post by frank k »

Dear Ven. T., looking forward to it.
One more thing I thought of after our discussion to chew on before we meet again.
The Tika subcommentary on the 4 jhāna similes physical nature with a subtle ethereal pleasure body, obviously to try to explain how jhāna could be redefined in terms of a 'mind only kāya' in Abhidhamma without contradicting what both commentary and subcommentary are acknowledging as the Buddha's referring to a physical body with the 4 jhānas in suttas.

The talk of a subtle nonphysical pleasure body, often is brought up as if it explains 5 senses being shut down in Vism. redefinition of jhāna.
Why?
Anyone skilled in qigong or first 3 jhānas as taught in sutta embodied jhāna can experience the same ethereal pleasure body while wide awake, eyes open, standing, and even walking around.
Just as someone can pee in their bed while they're awake, they can pee in their bed while dreaming. It doesn't require 5 senses shut off.

metta,
Frank


A. Bhikkhu wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 1:21 pm
frank k wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 8:36 am [...] metta, Frank
Dear Frank,
let's continue later. I definitely want to delve deeper into this important subject, and likely there will be another occasion to discuss it on Dhammawheel or somewhere else.

Mettā 2u!
Ṭhānuttamo
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
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