Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Assaji
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

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Alex123 wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:41 pm
Assaji wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 7:02 pm 'Paṭigha' here is rather an 'impact, sensory reaction; what is experienced (through sensory reaction)', as Margaret Cone's dictionary explains it.
So sensory reaction means that senses are functional in the 4 jhāna-s.
Indeed.
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A. Bhikkhu
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

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Kumara wrote: Mon May 05, 2014 7:59 am Some meditators say that we can’t hear sounds in jhāna, not even the first one. They speak by conviction of their own experience, and I agree. It’s true we can’t hear sounds in the Visuddhimagga type of jhāna. However, some among them claim that they are going by the Suttas, citing the Kaṇṭaka Sutta (AN10.72), which says, “Sound is a thorn (i.e., bother, source of discomfort) to the first jhāna.” (paṭhamassa jhānassa saddo kaṇṭako)

But does this statement support that view? If sound is a thorn to the first jhāna, it means one can hear sound in that state, doesn’t it? If not, sound wouldn’t be a thorn at all. Would something be a thorn to you if you can’t perceive it?
Bhante,
good evening. AN 10.72 clearly says that there is no sound in the first jhāna. Let me prove that point. It says, to begin with: "Sound is a thorn for the first jhāna" (paṭhamassa jhānassa saddo kaṇṭako). Considering that alone, one may come to the conclusion that this refers either to some time before the actual attainment, that is, that sound is an obstruction to the attainment of the first jhāna, or that sound can somehow influence the already attained jhāna state negatively.

That the latter option is what the sutta intends can be seen by the explanation it gives for the subsequent higher jhānas. To quote what it has to offer regarding the second: "Applied and sustained application [of mind] are a thorn for the second jhāna (dutiyassa jhānassa vitakkavicārā kaṇṭakā). The sutta thus establishes that it is speaking of phenomena not present in the jhānas it discusses since we know that applied and sustained application [of mind] (vitakkavicārā) are certainly not present in the second jhāna. Same with the phenomena it takes up for the rest of the four jhānas and the attainment of cessation.

This has already been dealt with in the Kathāvatthu: https://suttacentral.net/kv18.8/en/aung ... ight=false
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Kumara
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

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A. Bhikkhu wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 1:16 pm Bhante,
good evening. AN 10.72 clearly says that there is no sound in the first jhāna. Let me prove that point. It says, to begin with: "Sound is a thorn for the first jhāna" (paṭhamassa jhānassa saddo kaṇṭako). Considering that alone, one may come to the conclusion that this refers either to some time before the actual attainment, that is, that sound is an obstruction to the attainment of the first jhāna, or that sound can somehow influence the already attained jhāna state negatively.

That the latter option is what the sutta intends can be seen by the explanation it gives for the subsequent higher jhānas. To quote what it has to offer regarding the second: "Applied and sustained application [of mind] are a thorn for the second jhāna (dutiyassa jhānassa vitakkavicārā kaṇṭakā). The sutta thus establishes that it is speaking of phenomena not present in the jhānas it discusses since we know that applied and sustained application [of mind] (vitakkavicārā) are certainly not present in the second jhāna. Same with the phenomena it takes up for the rest of the four jhānas and the attainment of cessation.

This has already been dealt with in the Kathāvatthu: https://suttacentral.net/kv18.8/en/aung ... ight=false
Please refer to "Appendix 6: Is Sound Heard When Engaging in the Jhānas?" in What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi for a more complete treatment of the matter: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gT1rCJ ... sp=sharing
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pegembara
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Post by pegembara »

Interesting read
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gT1rCJ ... sp=sharing

Regarding ekagatta or one-pointedness.
When the mind is one-pointed, there are 2 states possible: a point that excludes or includes everything. The point shrinks into nothing that contains everything!
One of the great virtues of meditating on the inner sound is that it easily supports both aspects of samadhi (meditative concentration): samatha (“shamatha” in Sanskrit, meaning calmness or tranquillity) and vipassana (insight). Samadhi can be described as the fixing of the mind on a single object for a period of time. And this single­ness of focus, or one-pointedness, can function in two distinct ways. The first, which is the basis of samatha, can be thought of as “the point that excludes.” It’s like using the spot-focus beam of an adjustable flashlight to lock onto a single object and block out everything else.

The second way, the basis of vipassana, can be described as “the point that includes.” The one-pointedness expands into an awareness that makes the whole experience of the pres­ent moment the object of meditation. Using the broad-focus beam of the same adjustable flash­light, all the various aspects of the present—not just a single, brightly lit spot—are encompassed in the light of awareness.

https://www.lionsroar.com/the-sound-of-silence/
"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Is sound a perception, things tied up with the mind?
"In-&-out breaths are bodily; these are things tied up with the body. That's why in-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Having first directed one's thoughts and made an evaluation, one then breaks out into speech. That's why directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental; these are things tied up with the mind. That's why perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications."

"Now, lady, how does the attainment of the cessation of perception & feeling come about?"

"When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, verbal fabrications cease first, then bodily fabrications, then mental fabrications."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
First thinking stops, then the in and out breaths and finally everything else.
There is the case where a monk, with the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. With that he abandons ignorance. No ignorance-obsession gets obsessed there.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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