DN 21 hearing sounds in jhāna, samādhi, and paṭisallīnā

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frank k
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DN 21 hearing sounds in jhāna, samādhi, and paṭisallīnā

Post by frank k »

http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... madhi.html

I noticed some thing reading the entire sutta carefully that I hadn't before. Also read the agama parallel, which seems to match pretty close beginning to end.
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NotMe
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Re: DN 21 hearing sounds in jhāna, samādhi, and paṭisallīnā

Post by NotMe »

frank k wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 11:05 am http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... madhi.html

I noticed some thing reading the entire sutta carefully that I hadn't before. Also read the agama parallel, which seems to match pretty close beginning to end.
From the blog:

“ Loud Sound is a thorn in all 4 jhānas, including imperturbable version of 4th jhāna.

Loud Divine sounds can be divine thorns also, as Sakka's chariot shows.

VRJ (visuddhimagga redefinition of jhāna) is a completely different system of meditation than what the Buddha talks about in the 4 jhānas from the suttas.”

Maybe you meant “Loud Sound can be a thorn …”? Allowing also for them *not* to be a thorn. Or no?

Good work, Sherlock! On the rest we agree! Nice.

Metta

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frank k
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Re: DN 21 hearing sounds in jhāna, samādhi, and paṭisallīnā

Post by frank k »

NotMe wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:46 am
Maybe you meant “Loud Sound can be a thorn …”? Allowing also for them *not* to be a thorn. Or no?

Depends on what you mean.
Imperturbable formless attainment means the 5 senses are shut off, you can not hear sounds, so sound could not even be a thorn in that state.

In imperturbable fourth jhāna, sound is heard, even extremely loud sounds. They would be a 'thorn' to an ordinary person, but someone in the imperturbable 4th jhana would not get frightened or startled, so in that sense you could say maybe it's not a thorn.
But I don't think the suttas give an example to handle that case to establish how the Buddha would phrase it exactly to handle that nuance.
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NotMe
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Re: DN 21 hearing sounds in jhāna, samādhi, and paṭisallīnā

Post by NotMe »

Thank you for the clarity yes that helps I agree.

Metta

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