http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... madhi.html
I noticed some thing reading the entire sutta carefully that I hadn't before. Also read the agama parallel, which seems to match pretty close beginning to end.
DN 21 hearing sounds in jhāna, samādhi, and paṭisallīnā
DN 21 hearing sounds in jhāna, samādhi, and paṭisallīnā
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
www.audtip.org/audtip: Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
Re: DN 21 hearing sounds in jhāna, samādhi, and paṭisallīnā
From the blog:frank k wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 11:05 am http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... madhi.html
I noticed some thing reading the entire sutta carefully that I hadn't before. Also read the agama parallel, which seems to match pretty close beginning to end.
“ Loud Sound is a thorn in all 4 jhānas, including imperturbable version of 4th jhāna.
Loud Divine sounds can be divine thorns also, as Sakka's chariot shows.
VRJ (visuddhimagga redefinition of jhāna) is a completely different system of meditation than what the Buddha talks about in the 4 jhānas from the suttas.”
Maybe you meant “Loud Sound can be a thorn …”? Allowing also for them *not* to be a thorn. Or no?
Good work, Sherlock! On the rest we agree! Nice.
Metta
Re: DN 21 hearing sounds in jhāna, samādhi, and paṭisallīnā
Depends on what you mean.
Imperturbable formless attainment means the 5 senses are shut off, you can not hear sounds, so sound could not even be a thorn in that state.
In imperturbable fourth jhāna, sound is heard, even extremely loud sounds. They would be a 'thorn' to an ordinary person, but someone in the imperturbable 4th jhana would not get frightened or startled, so in that sense you could say maybe it's not a thorn.
But I don't think the suttas give an example to handle that case to establish how the Buddha would phrase it exactly to handle that nuance.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
www.audtip.org/audtip: Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
Re: DN 21 hearing sounds in jhāna, samādhi, and paṭisallīnā
Thank you for the clarity yes that helps I agree.
Metta
Metta