momentariness not in sutta?

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
atipattoh
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:28 am

Re: momentariness not in sutta?

Post by atipattoh »

Uppāda

Do not regards what I wrote here is what Acariya Ananda describes in Linatthapadavannana, as I don't read pali, and haven't got the English translation of it. If the text in Linatthapadavannana says something different from what I wrote below, please point that out.

What I write here is a personal definition.
Imagine that paṭiccasamuppāda is the macro expect of phenomena; and that the process describe in paṭiccasamuppāda is defined with respect to Sati and Uppāda; then the definition of Uppāda is important. From my understanding on the relation between the words on Uppāda, Udaya, Vyaya and Udayabbaya is that, Udaya is an illusion, a continuation of uppāda cycles (uppādo ṭhiti), contribute to magnitude of Udaya, resulted in illusion of time; Vyaya, interruption of change in sañña, interferes by udaya on different matters, producing the illusion of Vaya.
That leads to, “assa“ in “uppādo paññāyati, vayo paññāyati, ṭhitassa aññathattaṃ paññāyatī”, refers to both uppādo and vayo, (each of) these having been persisting and (its later) alterations are discerned; or even if it refers to only uppāda, in both cases, the perception of Vyaya essentially dependent on change of course in uppāda.

The alteration from one dhamma to another, comes from the impact of micro expect in phenomena. In a general scope, the uppāda in present part of the momentariness process feed, is dependent on uppāda of past part of process feed. The uppāda in future-present part of the momentariness process feed, is dependent on uppāda of present part of process feed. What happen is no more than just the nature of ever changing of thing.
Uppādavagga
Mendicants, the arising, continuation, rebirth, and manifestation of the eye is the arising of suffering, the continuation of diseases, and the manifestation of old age and death.

“Yo kho, bhikkhave, cakkhussa uppādo ṭhiti abhinibbatti pātubhāvo, dukkhasseso uppādo, rogānaṃ ṭhiti, jarāmaraṇassa pātubhāvo.
Rephrasing the above sutta:
Mendicants, the augmentation continuity, is the birth, and manifestation of what is pleasing to the eye; (this) augmentation leads to suffering, (that is) the continuation of diseases and the manifestation of old age and death.”

So, with the relation on Uppāda, Udaya, Vyaya and Udayabbaya that i define above, I don't see a supporting position from sutta for 3 sub-moments. So, by putting it aside, lets see how it turns out.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mrMRFa ... sp=sharing

In SN14.11 Sattadhatusutta, it mention in the dependency structure of Neither-Perception-nor-NonPerception ← Nothingness ← Consciousness ← Space ←Rupa elements. By looking at uppāda in this way, helps pointing to, Saṅkhārā within Neither-Perception-nor-NonPerception sphere, and residue-Saṅkhārā within Nothingness Sphere. By relating in this way, momentariness make sense to me in stitching up the suttas and momentariness. I don't know if this is just a coincident, the SN22.57 Seven Cases, it mention of “examine in three ways”; does tividhūpaparikkhī is related to uppāda; which ultimately leads to comprehension of udayabbaya.

Here is a bold attempt, on the 3-ways; is this what it leads to for “a bhikkhu a triple investigator” in “tividhūpaparikkhī hoti? Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dhātuso upaparikkhati, āyatanaso upaparikkhati, paṭiccasamuppādaso upaparikkhati.”? That is: Sati on Past, Present uppādo; Sati on Present, Future-Present uppādo ( Present become Future-Past).

In Sattaṭṭhāna Sutta SN 22.57, even though it mention the monk that is skilled in the ways of investigation “is fulfilled and fully accomplised in doctrine & displine – the ultimate person”, the three modes are just being glosses through with terms like dhatuso, ayatana and paticcasamuppada. Khandhā are product of collective augmentations; sam-uppāda, with paṭicca, we have paṭicca-sam-uppāda. Thus paṭiccasamuppāda can be said to be having both, micro and macro expect of explanation on phenomena; up to the point of contact, the rest of paṭiccasamuppāda is macro.

(to be continue)
atipattoh
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:28 am

Re: momentariness not in sutta?

Post by atipattoh »

Fusion of the 3 ways
SN5.9 Selasutta:
...Evaṃ khandhā ca dhātuyo,
cha ca āyatanā ime;
Hetuṃ paṭicca sambhūtā...
B Sujato's translation for Sela sutta:
In the same way the aggregates and elements
and these six sense fields
come to be because of a cause
'Fields' is used to translate āyatanā, perhaps due to consciousness is already included in the khandhā. My understanding of fields, refers to 處. But the word six sense fields, is not sufficient to cover the text āyatanā. The pali is written as “cha ca āyatanā ime” has a very “strange” arrangement; for “and these six sense fields”, I 'm expecting “ca cha āyatanā ime”.
So “cha ca āyatanā” has to be cracked, to see what it means.
In Saṃyuktāgama SA 1203 鼻黎
…. 陰界入亦然 ….
陰 means khandhā;
界 - spheres;
入 - 6 入, 6 internal fields (12處)
There are differences in terminology within Chinese interpretation:
A.
12 fields 處:
6 根 (bases): 眼根 耳根 鼻根 舌根 身根 意根 (Cakkhu, Sota, Ghāna, Jivha, Kāya, Mana bases)
6 境 (domains): 色境 聲境 香境 味境 觸境 法境 (Rūpa, Sadda, Gandha, Rasa, Phoṭṭhabba, Dhamma domains)
18 spheres 界
6 根: 眼界、耳界 、鼻界、舌界、身界、意界
6 境: 色界、聲界、香界、味界、觸界、法界
6 識(Viññāṇa) : 眼識界、耳識界 、鼻識界、舌識界、身識界、意識界
B
界 - 6 spheres (地水火風空識 earth, water, fire, wind, space and consciousness)
入- 6 入, 6 internal fields (referring to 12處)
18 spheres (界) includes 6 spheres (地水火風空識 ) and 12 fields (12處)
'A' and 'B' types of classification, has a mention in Bahudhātukasutta, 18 elements (dhātu).
A
“Aṭṭhārasa kho imā, ānanda, dhātuyo—cakkhudhātu, rūpadhātu, cakkhuviññāṇadhātu; sotadhātu, saddadhātu, sotaviññāṇadhātu; ghānadhātu, gandhadhātu, ghānaviññāṇadhātu; jivhādhātu, rasadhātu, jivhāviññāṇadhātu; kāyadhātu, phoṭṭhabbadhātu, kāyaviññāṇadhātu; manodhātu, dhammadhātu, manoviññāṇadhātu. Imā kho, ānanda, aṭṭhārasa dhātuyo yato jānāti passati—ettāvatāpi kho, ānanda, ‘dhātukusalo bhikkhū’ti alaṃvacanāyā”ti.

but B.
Chayimā, ānanda, dhātuyo – pathavīdhātu, āpodhātu, tejodhātu, vāyodhātu, ākāsadhātu, viññāṇadhātu.
There are these six elements: the elements of earth, water, fire, air, space, and consciousness.
The sutta in agama parallel mentions “陰界入亦然” , 陰 means khandhā, it has “界入”, and we have “cha ca āyatanā” in pali version. That means āyatanā is broader in meaning, referring to 6x3 matrix; not just 6 or 6x2 matrix.

The agama has a saying of “四大圍空, 識住其中“ which is mention in Pali Dhātu sutta SN27.9 that ties up mahadhātu, space and consciousness;
四大 → mahabhātu,
圍 would meant ”compounded” in 空 space,
識 consciousness
住 (is) sheltered,
其中 within.
The Pali speaks as well, of Rūpa, Vedanā, Saññā & Saṅkhāra being shelter (所依住) for viññāṇa
SN22.3 Hāliddikānisutta
Householder, the form element is a shelter for consciousness....
the feeling element …
the perception element ...
the choices element …
Rūpadhātu kho, gahapati, viññāṇassa oko....
Vedanādhātu kho, gahapati, viññāṇassa oko....
Saññādhātu kho, gahapati, viññāṇassa oko....
Saṅkhāradhātu kho, gahapati, viññāṇassa oko....
With the combination of khandhā, dhātu and āyatanā, within the restriction of 12 fields of āyatanā, then interpreting “Kenidaṃ pakataṃ bimbaṃ : Who created this puppet?” make sense. But we have parallel that says āyatanā include space and consciousness sphere.

Imaging that the Mara parts is removed, and that the nun is meditating.

Normally, when we say dhātu, we refer to the 4 great elements; which 4-element meditation can be done without Jhana. What happen after that is a necessity of Jhana, being the catalyst for the rest part of meditation with respect to discerning spheres, Rupa Jhana 1~4, Arupa Jhana of Space and Consciousness Spheres, then the paṭiccasamuppāda on the root causal of khandhā.
Bimbaṃ is define as “an image; figure; the disk (of the sun or moon)”. The āgama parallel SA2 219:
誰造於色像?  色像造作誰? (reflexive verses who → shape → who)
色像從何出?  色像何所趣? (transitive verses → shape → )
Marcus Bingenheimer translated:
Who creates this shape,
who is its creator? (for this translation it should have been 色像造誰)
From where did this shape appear,
whither will it go?”
rephrasing:
Whom is created from this sign,
This sign makes into whom?
From where did this sign appear,

whither will it go?”
By taking “who” being a part of 5 khandhā, then the “sign” would be the fusion part of dhātu part by Rūpadhātu, Vedanādhātu, Saññādhātu, Saṅkhāradhātu with respect to consciousness (who).
So we have Bimbam ↔ shape/sign ↔ dhātu; just by removing the mara, bimbam is not a puppet. The way it is being translated into English, appear to display a male dominant nature of the world. Puppet is very close to “Bimbo”; come to think of it, there is a possibility that bimbo being derived from here? Interpreting Bimbam as puppet, appear to be a reflux influence; brought about by corruption of Mara portion of the text.

One expect of Rūpadhātu is related to dhammadhātu of manodhātu, for mind object in Rupa Jhana; then dhātu of Bimbam is a nimitta. Normally, one would think that the relation of salayatana is (Cakkhu Sota Ghāna Jivha Kāya) ↔ (Mana); question is, what is the “interface mechanism” part of it?

It boils down to, how rupa nimitta being augmented, especially when it comes to mind object vs mind; and that mind object is a product of sañña. There is only one possible answer, that is the micro expect of phenomena: momentariness. By looking at momentariness as the micro expect and paṭiccasamuppāda on the macro expect, here is an attempt of fusing them into a table.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VaizcF ... sp=sharing
I have placed J3~J5 under Viññāṇa. J3 bridging the Saṅkhārā (Vibrational Bhavanga) and Viññāṇa (Arresting Bhavanga). And the word arresting {future-present} capture the procees feed from Salāyatana {present}; Hence future-present lead to further augmentation of process feed of Salāyatana {present_1}.
From my observation, the micro part has the purpose of capturing the functionality or activity of sati and uppāda; that the process feed of momentariness, is a mechanism in micro expect that one can consolidates from “a triple investigation” mentioned in Sattaṭṭhāna Sutta SN 22.57.

So, i would say the best reference from sutta that support momentariness, is the word sati and uppāda in paṭiccasamuppāda.
atipattoh
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:28 am

Why general stocks of Jhāna contains “enter and remain”?

Post by atipattoh »

Hi Robert,
robertk wrote: Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:49 am
Jhāna’s states, when in general brief description, is worded in macro perspective (repetitive micro with ‘ing’, enter+remain), continual repetitive arising and ceasing of jhānas of the first state and others' each state. With “vuṭṭhahitvā[/b] (seems to be plural?), means emerging after entering, signify the ceasing of arising Jhānas consciousness, the sutta takes a different wording, that is in plural Jhānā; such as “Paṭhamā jhānā, the phenomena is described in the context within momentaries, plurality of micro scale Jhānas a particular Jhāna state.
Atha kho bhagavā paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ samāpajji. { < -- macro, micro -- > }Paṭhamā jhānā vuṭṭhahitvā dutiyaṁ jhānaṁ samāpajji. Dutiyā jhānā vuṭṭhahitvā tatiyaṁ jhānaṁ samāpajji. Tatiyā jhānā vuṭṭhahitvā catutthaṁ jhānaṁ samāpajji. Catutthā jhānā vuṭṭhahitvā ākāsānañcāyatanaṁ samāpajji.
Paṭhama is an adjective, can it be plural? Unless in {enter+remain}={entering (entered Paṭhama-jhāna) (emerging), entering (entered Paṭhama-jhāna) (emerging), ….}
It seems this could be a supporting text of early Buddhist's momentariness.

Sāriputta’s answer in SN28.3 is particularly interesting as well.
But it didn’t occur to me:
‘I am entering the third absorption’ or ‘I have entered the third absorption’ or ‘I am emerging from the third absorption(s)’.”

Tassa mayhaṁ, āvuso, na evaṁ hoti: ‘ahaṁ tatiyaṁ jhānaṁ samāpajjāmī’ti vā ‘ahaṁ tatiyaṁ jhānaṁ samāpanno’ti vā ‘ahaṁ tatiyā jhānā vuṭṭhito’ti vā”
“..it didn’t occur to me:…I am emerging from the third absorption(s)”, that Sāriputta is not aware of the ceasing part of each consciousness moments of the third Jhāna while going through these repetitive enterings and emergings. In macro perspective, entering and emerging are know, in micro perspective, entering, entered and emerging are not known. By not aware of ceasing, one does not aware of repetitive entering, thus not aware of remaining, within the scope of consecutive enterings.

So it seems; Paṭhamā, Dutiyā, Tatiyā, Catutthā, and Bhāvanā, has the essence of 'happening'; Jhānā is thus defined as a momentaries phenomena.
atipattoh
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:28 am

Re: momentariness not in sutta?

Post by atipattoh »

A note:
SN28... are about 'I am'.
But I'm looking at a different angle, onto Paṭhamā, Dutiyā, Tatiyā, Catutthā Jhānā appear with emerging vuṭṭhito.
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