Visuddhimagga for Suttavādins

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

I don't think modern Sauntrantikas (Paravada) can even understand it fully, let alone appreciate it.

Maybe they find joy in Buddhadasa's books, Kukrit's books, or some new age enlightenment books.

No - far more likely the Sutta Pitaka, hence Suttavādins.

Metta,
Paul.

[BrokenBones]

Two different tenets (Vibhajjavada Vs Sutravada), how they can be reconciled?

Visuddhimagga was from Vibhajjavada (aka Sakavada or later be Theravada). I don't think modern Sauntrantikas (Paravada) can even understand it fully, let alone appreciate it.

Maybe they find joy in Buddhadasa's books, Kukrit's books, or some new age enlightenment books.

Maybe some groups can't understand the supremacy of the suttas and look elsewhere for their ideas to be confirmed.

And trying to pin suttavadins (for want of a better word) to specific modern day teachers totally misses the mark. To my mind, modern day teachers are just part of a long line of commentators interpreting the suttas... some good, some bad, some mixed and some wouldn't know a sutta if it landed on their head but spend their time commenting on a commentary of a commentary of a sectarian viewpoint from centuries ago with ne'er a sutta in sight or if there is then it's a snippet taken out of context.

"... don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness' — then you should enter & remain in them."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Now if you can apply the above to the Visuddhimagga then I'm happy for you... but for me (having read the Visuddhimagga, vimuttimagga & other modern sectarian works) it just caused more questions than answers whereas the suttas provide only answers.

[Ontheway]

...whereas the suttas provide only answers.

Many things were not explained explicitly in Suttanta.

Examples: how the Iddhi power of reading one's mind works; how to do Metta Bhavana in details; how to know the exact intended meaning of "internal or external, superior or inferior, gross or subtle Rupa"; what is meant by "Viññāṇa paccaya Nāmarupa" in details, how Kasina meditations work; what are being taught by the Buddha follows the quotation "talks on virtues, heavens, woeful states, etc."; what is the subtle difference between "I am the owner of my actions" in Upajjhatthanasutta and "He who acts is he who reaps” in Aññatarabrāhmaṇasutta; what are the details of Ānāpānassati method; and many more.

Without referring to Atthakatha (which included Visuddhimagga in a sense, as it stands between the Pāli Tipitaka and Atthakatha), we will not get the correct interpretation.

other modern sectarian works) it just caused more questions than answers

This is correct. EBT group's teachings involved guesses and senseless copy-paste of scriptures. That's why I was confused for so many years reading one guru's books to another guru's writings, who claimed to be adhering the "Early teachings of Buddha", but actually just his/her own take of Buddhism.

[BrokenBones]

...whereas the suttas provide only answers.

Many things were not explained explicitly in Suttanta.

Examples: how the Iddhi power of reading one's mind works; how to do Metta Bhavana in details; how to know the exact intended meaning of "internal or external, superior or inferior, gross or subtle Rupa"; what is meant by "Viññāṇa paccaya Nāmarupa" in details, how Kasina meditations work; what are being taught by the Buddha follows the quotation "talks on virtues, heavens, woeful states, etc."; what is the subtle difference between "I am the owner of my actions" in Upajjhatthanasutta and "He who acts is he who reaps” in Aññatarabrāhmaṇasutta; what are the details of Ānāpānassati method; and many more.

Without referring to Atthakatha (which included Visuddhimagga in a sense, as it stands between the Pāli Tipitaka and Atthakatha), we will not get the correct interpretation.

other modern sectarian works) it just caused more questions than answers

This is correct. EBT group's teachings involved guesses and senseless copy-paste of scriptures. That's why I was confused for so many years reading one guru's books to another guru's writings, who claimed to be adhering the "Early teachings of Buddha", but actually just his/her own take of Buddhism.

You seem to have little respect for the suttas.

Just to take one of your 'unanswered questions'... the metta sutta sets out clearly the mind states & behaviour to be practised/contemplated, those to be abandoned & those to be cultivated... the result... metta... were you expecting some sort of tantric/Hindu/qi chasing exercise? This is the suttas we're talking about not the Visuddhimagga or modern Burmese innovations.

People seek here & there for techniques when the 'technique' is actually the sutta.

I see commentaries & commentators doing their job properly if they stick to the sutta teaching and making that teaching relatable to their audience.

Btw... you did a nice bit of dodgy editing of my post to try & make your point

[arkaprava]

...whereas the suttas provide only answers.

Without referring to Atthakatha (which included Visuddhimagga in a sense, as it stands between the Pāli Tipitaka and Atthakatha), we will not get the correct interpretation.

How do you "know" that the interpretation of the অর্থকথা (Atthakatha) is correct ? Are you claiming to be a stream-entrant atleast ? How are you so sure that it will lead correctly to the end of suffering ? Or just mere faith ? If it is only faith then the others are also perfectly eligible to be faithful to their assessment of the teachings promulgated in the Visuddhimagga, be sceptical regarding their contradictions with the Sutta Pitaka.

The Buddha says the following himself :

Come, Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, 'The monk is our teacher.' Kalamas, when you yourselves know: 'These things are good; these things are not blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,' enter on and abide in them.

[Ontheway]

Then you don't know the history of how the Sasana was preserved by Theravada via parampara system. And you don't even realize that the Pāli scriptures we are reading now is came from this very tradition.

Kalama Sutta is often misquoted. You quoted the first half and never see the second half. It is through the second half of the passage that many Buddhists (not internet buddhists) accepted the Theravada exegesis tradition.

[BrokenBones]

Then you don't know the history of how the Sasana was preserved by Theravada via parampara system. And you don't even realize that the Pāli scriptures we are reading now is came from this very tradition.

Kalama Sutta is often misquoted. You quoted the first half and never see the second half. It is through the second half of the passage that many Buddhists (not internet buddhists) accepted the Theravada exegesis tradition.

It is not misquoted. What on earth is there in the 'second part' that warrants acceptance of the Theravada accretions?

And your inference of 'internet Buddhists' not being true Buddhists is highly amusing... you do know that you are on the internet as you read this

I make no statements doubting Visuddhimagga followers sincerity, sila etc. but you seem to think that Buddhists who reject it and the Abhidhamma lose their 'entitlement' to be followers of the Buddha. Even the Catholics and Protestants are less vitriolic than that.

[Ontheway]

Then you don't know the history of how the Sasana was preserved by Theravada via parampara system. And you don't even realize that the Pāli scriptures we are reading now is came from this very tradition.

Kalama Sutta is often misquoted. You quoted the first half and never see the second half. It is through the second half of the passage that many Buddhists (not internet buddhists) accepted the Theravada exegesis tradition.

It is not misquoted. What on earth is there in the 'second part' that warrants acceptance of the Theravada accretions?

And your inference of 'internet Buddhists' not being true Buddhists is highly amusing... you do know that you are on the internet as you read this

I make no statements doubting Visuddhimagga followers sincerity, sila etc. but you seem to think that Buddhists who reject it and the Abhidhamma lose their 'entitlement' to be followers of the Buddha. Even the Catholics and Protestants are less vitriolic than that.

I don't see Kalama Sutta gave your kinds a free pass to dismiss what Buddha and his fellow Arahants taught either. Furthermore, Kalama Sutta was aiming at nonBuddhist laypeople.

Here is the second part:

When you know for yourselves that, "These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness" — then you should enter & remain in them.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said.

Now ever since the first council till the sixth Theravada council, many Buddhists from different countries and background accepted Theravada tradition because it brings true Sasana, true practice and true path. And what is Theravada tradition? It is the parampara system stretching from the first ever council in ancient India, written down the scriptures on leaves by ancient Lankan elders during the fourth council, down to the sixth council in Burma. Many people benefited from this tradition. Because it brings peace, truths, and distinction that people accepted this tradition.

And yes, Theravada (or Vibhajjavada) upholds Pali Tipitaka (not Dipitaka, not Ekapitaka). If people denied one of it, he/she should not be considered as "Theravadin". It is the teaching that sets the limitation of the term usage.

Ordination lineage, though play a part, doesn't impact much on this. One can still get ordained as monk under Theravada lineage, but involved in many nonBuddhist practice and uphold nonBuddhist teachings....like what happened in Thailand.

What Catholic or Protestant has to do with Buddha's teachings? Both teachings are Micchaditthi.

[arkaprava]

Then you don't know the history of how the Sasana was preserved by Theravada via parampara system. And you don't even realize that the Pāli scriptures we are reading now is came from this very tradition.

Kalama Sutta is often misquoted. You quoted the first half and never see the second half. It is through the second half of the passage that many Buddhists (not internet buddhists) accepted the Theravada exegesis tradition.

It is not misquoted. What on earth is there in the 'second part' that warrants acceptance of the Theravada accretions?

And your inference of 'internet Buddhists' not being true Buddhists is highly amusing... you do know that you are on the internet as you read this

I make no statements doubting Visuddhimagga followers sincerity, sila etc. but you seem to think that Buddhists who reject it and the Abhidhamma lose their 'entitlement' to be followers of the Buddha. Even the Catholics and Protestants are less vitriolic than that.

I don't see Kalama Sutta gave your kinds a free pass to dismiss what Buddha and his fellow Arahants taught either. Furthermore, Kalama Sutta was aiming at nonBuddhist laypeople.

Here is the second part:

When you know for yourselves that, "These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness" — then you should enter & remain in them.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said.

Now ever since the first council till the sixth Theravada council, many Buddhists from different countries and background accepted Theravada tradition because it brings true Sasana, true practice and true path. And what is Theravada tradition? It is the parampara system stretching from the first ever council in ancient India, written down the scriptures on leaves by ancient Lankan elders during the fourth council, down to the sixth council in Burma. Many people benefited from this tradition. Because it brings peace, truths, and distinction that people accepted this tradition.

And yes, Theravada (or Vibhajjavada) upholds Pali Tipitaka (not Dipitaka, not Ekapitaka). If people denied one of it, he/she should not be considered as "Theravadin". It is the teaching that sets the limitation of the term usage.

The পরম্পরা system is not native only to Buddhism, it is prevalent amongst Sikhs, Hindus, Jains as well. I don't realise how do you know it brings " true" Sasana, "true" path, unless you are a stream entrant yourself. The Guru-Sishya relation is prevalent amongst several Indic religions. Being an Indian, I am very well aware of it.