the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Joe.c
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Joe.c »

Anyone who still attach to kamma and kamma vipaka will definitely return to this world (in future). Anyone who practice N8FP day and night will eventually abandon kamma and kamma vipaka (especially for one with sati/samadhi fully established through wisdom).

SN 35.146. Kamma
...
“And what, bhikkhus, is the cessation of kamma? When one reaches liberation through the cessation of bodily action, verbal action, and mental action, this is called the cessation of kamma.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the way leading to the cessation of kamma? It is this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right lifestyle, right practice, right sati, right samadhi.
...
MN 117 Mahācattārīsakasutta:
... And what is right view? Right view is twofold, I say. There is right view that is accompanied by defilements, has the attributes of good deeds, and ripens in attachment. And there is right view that is noble, undefiled, transcendent, a factor of the path.

And what is right view that is accompanied by defilements, has the attributes of good deeds, and ripens in attachment? ‘There is meaning in giving, sacrifice, and offerings. There are fruits and results of good and bad deeds. There is an afterlife. There are duties to mother and father. There are beings reborn spontaneously. And there are ascetics and brahmins who are well attained and practiced, and who describe the afterlife after realizing it with their own insight.’ This is right view that is accompanied by defilements, has the attributes of good deeds, and ripens in attachment.

And what is right view that is noble, undefiled, transcendent, a factor of the path? It’s the wisdom—the faculty of wisdom, the power of wisdom, the awakening factor of investigation of principles, and right view as a factor of the path—in one of noble mind and undefiled mind, who possesses the noble path and develops the noble path. This is called right view that is noble, undefiled, transcendent, a factor of the path. ...
AN 4.237:
“And what is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma? Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right lifestyle, right practice, right sati, right samadhi. This is called kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma.

“These, monks, are the four types of kamma directly realized, verified, & made known by me.”
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Ontheway
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ontheway »

Rebirth is real and the Buddha taught about it. There is no dispute in this matter.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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mjaviem
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mjaviem »

Ontheway wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 7:12 am Rebirth is real and the Buddha taught about it. There is no dispute in this matter.
Do you realize that being so sure about literal rebirth is attachment? Even if life after death is a reality, you are clinging to a self view just like people who deny it. Both beliefs are wrong. The teaching is to abandon views such as the view "Will I be in the future?" and the view "Will I not be in the future?". The Buddha did not taught literal rebirth nor denied it. His sole concern was to show us all, the way to release.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
TRobinson465
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by TRobinson465 »

Ontheway wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 7:12 am Rebirth is real and the Buddha taught about it. There is no dispute in this matter.
I would extend this (partially as a response to the OPs original post). Rebirth is real, the Buddha taught it, and it matters and is useful to know about. As the Buddha is an arahant and arahants only speak when it is kind, truthful and beneficial. There is also no rationale for the Buddha talking so extensively about rebirth, and even specifying belief in the next world as a right view if it wasnt useful.

If it was true but not useful to know about, it coulda simply gone under one of the unanswered questions- which he knew as Buddhas have unobstructed access to any knowledge they want, but chose not to answer because it wasn't useful for anyone to know.
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wenjaforever
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by wenjaforever »

Well I'm an atheist so I 100% believe in rebirth.
money is worthless toilet paper • the tongue has no bone (a person might say one thing but it cannot be further from the truth) • you cannot teach a goat math as in you cannot teach the dhamma to a dumb person
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 8:28 pm
Ontheway wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 7:12 am Rebirth is real and the Buddha taught about it. There is no dispute in this matter.
Do you realize that being so sure about literal rebirth is attachment? Even if life after death is a reality, you are clinging to a self view just like people who deny it.
The Buddha was sure about literal rebirth. Was he attached?
Both beliefs are wrong.
The Buddha had wrong view?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mjaviem
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 10:00 am The Buddha was sure about literal rebirth. Was he attached?

The Buddha had wrong view?
You shouldn't compare yourself with the Buddha. In your and my case, we both are attached to views. These views are wrong and this attachment is also wrong.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 11:13 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 10:00 am The Buddha was sure about literal rebirth. Was he attached?

The Buddha had wrong view?
You shouldn't compare yourself with the Buddha. In your and my case, we both are attached to views. These views are wrong and this attachment is also wrong.
I wasn't comparing myself to the Buddha. I said the Buddha was sure about literal rebirth. Having a view of rebirth isn't wrong. It can be with attachment, or it can be without it.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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DNS
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by DNS »

mjaviem wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 11:13 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 10:00 am The Buddha was sure about literal rebirth. Was he attached?

The Buddha had wrong view?
In your and my case, we both are attached to views. These views are wrong and this attachment is also wrong.
Sammā-diṭṭhi = Right view.

Not all views are bad, sammā-diṭṭhi is the first of the Noble Eightfold Path and is to be cultivated.
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mjaviem
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mjaviem »

DNS wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:25 pm Sammā-diṭṭhi = Right view.

Not all views are bad, sammā-diṭṭhi is the first of the Noble Eightfold Path and is to be cultivated.
Sorry but I bet Ceisiwr and I don't hold right view. But at least we both believe there is this world and the other world, this, although mundane, seems right.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 8:41 pm
DNS wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:25 pm Sammā-diṭṭhi = Right view.

Not all views are bad, sammā-diṭṭhi is the first of the Noble Eightfold Path and is to be cultivated.
Sorry but I bet Ceisiwr and I don't hold right view. But at least we both believe there is this world and the other world, this, although mundane, seems right.
That is part of Right View.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mjaviem
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 8:46 pm That is part of Right View.
And that there are beings spontaneously born is part of it, too. We both might not be so wrong in the end...
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 8:49 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 8:46 pm That is part of Right View.
And that there are beings spontaneously born is part of it, too.
Yes. So why do you say we don't have right view? If you mean not being a stream-enterer and the like, sure. That though is truly understanding Right View. Before that, you have to have an intellectual grasp of it. And of course, none of this means that its wrong to have a view of rebirth.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mjaviem
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 8:54 pm Yes. So why do you say we don't have right view? If you mean not being a stream-enterer and the like, sure. That though is truly understanding Right View. Before that, you have to have an intellectual grasp of it. And of course, none of this means that its wrong to have a view of rebirth.
I mean there is an ultimate right view which possibly might have nothing to do with affirmation and negation of literal rebirth.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 10:03 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 8:54 pm Yes. So why do you say we don't have right view? If you mean not being a stream-enterer and the like, sure. That though is truly understanding Right View. Before that, you have to have an intellectual grasp of it. And of course, none of this means that its wrong to have a view of rebirth.
I mean there is an ultimate right view which possibly might have nothing to do with affirmation and negation of literal rebirth.
Sounds like Madhyamaka, but even there you have to walk before you can run.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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