Abhidhamma is not a Complicated Entanglement

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
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Eko Care
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Re: Abhidhamma is not a Complicated Entanglement

Post by Eko Care »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 12:45 pm
Ontheway wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 12:38 pm Yes, analysis is important for many occasions. That's why this Sasana is termed "Vibhajjavada".
Vibhajjavada possibly just meant those who make distinctions between the past, present and future as opposed to those who accept tri-temporal realism such as the Sarvāstivādins or the Pudgalavādins.
I guess it is the assumption made by Y. Karunadasa ?
Ontheway
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Re: Abhidhamma is not a Complicated Entanglement

Post by Ontheway »

Eko Care wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 5:34 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 12:45 pm
Ontheway wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 12:38 pm Yes, analysis is important for many occasions. That's why this Sasana is termed "Vibhajjavada".
Vibhajjavada possibly just meant those who make distinctions between the past, present and future as opposed to those who accept tri-temporal realism such as the Sarvāstivādins or the Pudgalavādins.
I guess it is the assumption made by Y. Karunadasa ?
I think Ceiswr is correct on this. Vibhajjavada is a term coined to differentiate the orthodox Theravada from other early Buddhism sects during the third council.

But that major doctrinal difference was the decisive factor that made these schools different from each other. The term "Vibhajjavada" isn't created by Arahant Moggaliputta Tissa Thera or the fellow Arahants in the third council, it already existed before the council, judging from Mahavamsa record.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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Eko Care
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Re: Abhidhamma is not a Complicated Entanglement

Post by Eko Care »

Pulsar wrote: The context in which a comment gets made can get butchered when one resorts to moving a comment from one thread to another.
You have already been well answered in the very thread and context.
Apart from that, RobertK's answer given to your question is valid in any context.
See the below.
robertk wrote:
Pulsar wrote: If your teachings are so sophisticated, what good is it to the farmer, or the housewife?
A few decades back I was living in Thailand ..
At this place there were several elderly women living in the huts who were illiterate. .. there were weekly discussions of Abhidhamma which these women were well equipped to join in.

It is important to know that Abhidhamma describes what is real and occurring every moment in life, and those elements that may arise in the future. So the lists of cittas, cetasikas and rupas are simply details of those elements that should be understood- it is not some academic exercise, and although deep is readily available to any sincere seeker.
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Eko Care
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Re: Abhidhamma is not a Complicated Entanglement

Post by Eko Care »

robertk wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:34 am I like what Iggelden writes in the Intro. to the Vibhanga(Abhidhamma pitaka) (Pali text society)

“It is all very well to say ‘I know what needs to be done to break
the continuity of rebirth and death’. In fact very few people know of
even the most elementary reasons for the continuity of process, let
alone of breaking it. It is the detailed description, analysis and
reasons given for this cyclic process that the scriptures spend so
much care in putting before us.
It is all very well to say ‘What do I want to know all these
definitions of terms for, it only clutters the mind?’The question is,
though, how many people when they seriously ask themselves as to the
extent and range of some such apparently simple terms as greed,
hatred and ignorance, can know their full and proper implications and
manifestations within their own thoughts and actions…This the
scriptures are at pains to make clear to even the dullest
reader…”

And from the Commentary:

The Expositor (Atthasalini). Commentary On The Dhammasangani The First Book Of The Abhidhamma Pitaka. Translated by Pe Maung Tin. pp. 35-38,
And tradition has it that those bhikkhus only who know Abhidhamma are true preachers of the Dhamma; the rest, though they speak on the Dhamma, are not preachers thereof. And why? They, in speaking on the Dhamma, confuse the different kinds of Kamma and of its results, the distinction between mind and matter, and the different kinds of states. The students of Abhidhamma do not thus get confused; hence a bhikkhu who knows Abhidhamma, whether he preaches the Dhamma or not, will be able to answer questions whenever asked. He alone, therefore, is a true preacher of the Dhamma.
Now having said that, if someone has truly penetrated Dependent Origination and the 8 fold path then perhaps they won't need detailed study of Abhidhamma - Indeed for those truly wise ones Abhidhamma has become something that is showing itself every moment in real time.
:goodpost:
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Re: Abhidhamma is not a Complicated Entanglement

Post by frank k »

I didn't read this thread, just the headline caught my attention.
if indeed, "Abhidhamma is not a Complicated Entanglement", then one of you should easily be able to answer my question about where, exactly what passages in canonical abhidhamma that explain where 4 jhānas have mind divorced from 5 senses (see my thread).
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Re: Abhidhamma is not a Complicated Entanglement

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 8:18 pm I've heard that amongst the laity the Abhidhamma is most popular amongst women in Thailand. Is that true, based on your experience?
Just a personal anecdote — I visited a Mae Chee in Thailand who was reputed to be an Arahant. I talked to someone who knows both Thai and English who said she (the Mae Chee) uses very technical language in Thai that makes her teachings very hard to translate into English. She was clearly more intellectual in bent than the male Thai Forest Ajahn who lived nearby. I suspect she was well versed in Abidhamma concepts, but idk for sure.
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Re: Abhidhamma is not a Complicated Entanglement

Post by Joe.c »

TheSynergist wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 7:22 pm Just a personal anecdote — I visited a Mae Chee in Thailand who was reputed to be an Arahant.
If she is truly arahant, you should have stay with her. Even for 1 day may be for your good.

Because a true arahant can bring anyone into the stream fast. Even with 1 sentence if your mind is ready and pliable. You can enter the stream.

But based on my reading, even you have doubt. Then how can one be sure?

An arahant can explain thing so simple that anyone can enter the stream fast. But for higher awakening levels, this need other faculties developement.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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TheSynergist
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Re: Abhidhamma is not a Complicated Entanglement

Post by TheSynergist »

Joe.c wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 2:43 am
TheSynergist wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 7:22 pm Just a personal anecdote — I visited a Mae Chee in Thailand who was reputed to be an Arahant.
If she is truly arahant, you should have stay with her. Even for 1 day may be for your good.

Because a true arahant can bring anyone into the stream fast. Even with 1 sentence if your mind is ready and pliable. You can enter the stream.

But based on my reading, even you have doubt. Then how can one be sure?

An arahant can explain thing so simple that anyone can enter the stream fast. But for higher awakening levels, this need other faculties developement.
This thread is about Abidhamma, and I was answering a question about Abidhamma influence on female thai practitioners. I'm not sure from where you are making assumptions about my practice with her. :focus:
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Re: Abhidhamma is not a Complicated Entanglement

Post by Joe.c »

TheSynergist wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 6:44 pm ...
Ok cool. Good luck.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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Re: Abhidhamma is not a Complicated Entanglement

Post by tharpa »

TheSynergist wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 6:44 pm I'm not sure from where you are making assumptions about my practice with her. :focus:
I saw no such assumption. Back to topic.
May all beings, in or out of the womb, be well, happy and peaceful.
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