Tantra Buddhism

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
peterjack
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Tantra Buddhism

Post by peterjack »

I was immersed in this tradition before becoming drawn to the (relative) simplicity of Theravada.

However, I still feel concerned at the huge difference in teachings on, for example, the after death state and Tantric teachings. If for example the Tibetan teachings on the Bardo and the various methods for being mindful through the death process are valid then having been made aware of them surely we should take advantage of them? Equally we're told in Tantra that the only way to achieve Enlightenment (as opposed to Liberation only) is to practice Tantra - all other methods are merely paths to the Highest practices of Tantric Buddhism.
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tharpa
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Re: Tantra Buddhism

Post by tharpa »

peterjack wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:21 am I was immersed in this tradition before becoming drawn to the (relative) simplicity of Theravada.

However, I still feel concerned at the huge difference in teachings on, for example, the after death state and Tantric teachings. If for example the Tibetan teachings on the Bardo and the various methods for being mindful through the death process are valid then having been made aware of them surely we should take advantage of them? Equally we're told in Tantra that the only way to achieve Enlightenment (as opposed to Liberation only) is to practice Tantra - all other methods are merely paths to the Highest practices of Tantric Buddhism.
"If for example the Tibetan teachings on the Bardo and the various methods for being mindful through the death process are valid then having been made aware of them surely we should take advantage of them? "

One question is why you would believe the Tibetan teachings on this over the Buddha's teachings? I see no reason to do so.

For me, what finally made me leave Tibetan Buddhism was two major things:

1) I came to realize that the Vajrayana was organized hypocrisy. The teachers were simply not worthy of the exaggerated devotion students were taught to give them.

2) After reading the Tipitika (or a large portion of it), I came to see that it was overall consistent - it was mostly the product of a single mind. On the other hand, when I read the Mahayana sutras systematically (and not just the handful that are famous or that some teacher allows me to read) I saw that they were inconsistent - that they were an anthology of Buddhist fan fiction by many people and many schools over many centuries put in the mouth of the Buddha by people who did not practice the Buddha's Fourth Precept. Even individual sutras seemed like they were composed by many people arguing with each other, each putting their words in the mouth of the Buddha.
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Motova
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Re: Tantra Buddhism

Post by Motova »

peterjack wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:21 am If for example the Tibetan teachings on the Bardo and the various methods for being mindful through the death process are valid then having been made aware of them surely we should take advantage of them?
To answer your question, the Buddha taught there were no secret teachings in the Dhamma, therefore contradicting future developments (sutras, tantras, and termas). If you don't practice what the Buddha taught then you are breaking your refuge.

I think you are talking specifically about Phowa. Phowa is all Guru Yoga. Phowa is not really a skill or method or technique. Phowa (all of its forms) is essentially devotional and Guru Yoga.

Tibetan Buddhism is not scientific, that appearance is one of their many skillful means to get beings into Mahayana. What you mention are not skills, techniques, or methods. It is a lot of Guru Yoga with a lot of ritual and commitments.

I do understand the pull of Tibetan Buddhism though, Bodhicitta is really captivating and bewitching. Their rhetoric is really good as well.
dharmacorps
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Re: Tantra Buddhism

Post by dharmacorps »

Contrary to what Tantra teachers repeatedly say, as others have mentioned, there is no evidence whatsoever that the Buddha taught tantra.Zero. It is very likely a later, primarily Hindu development from a time when Buddhism was receding in India and becoming more Hindu-like in its practice. You have to consider first and foremost why those teachers would (falsely) claim the Buddha was so duplicitous in his teachings (rejecting secrecy then teaching tantra secretly). What else would they misrepresent?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Tantra Buddhism

Post by Ceisiwr »

peterjack wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:21 am I was immersed in this tradition before becoming drawn to the (relative) simplicity of Theravada.

However, I still feel concerned at the huge difference in teachings on, for example, the after death state and Tantric teachings. If for example the Tibetan teachings on the Bardo and the various methods for being mindful through the death process are valid then having been made aware of them surely we should take advantage of them?
Theravāda doesn't accept an intermediate state between rebirths, which I believe is what Bardo is. Theravāda does though place great importance on one's mind state at the time of death. You might be interested in the Dependent Origination section of the Visuddhimagga: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... on2011.pdf
Equally we're told in Tantra that the only way to achieve Enlightenment (as opposed to Liberation only) is to practice Tantra - all other methods are merely paths to the Highest practices of Tantric Buddhism.
Many monks and nuns were practicing just fine without Tantra for many centuries, and still do today.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Rambutan
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Re: Tantra Buddhism

Post by Rambutan »

The Buddha gave teachings and answered questions put forth by farmers, kings, his own sangha, etc. for some forty years. But I don’t recall reading suttas where he interacts with sadhus, yogis or ascetics, of which india literally has, and had at that time, thousands. He even hung out with five of them just before attaining realization. Aside from those five, were there others?

I find this very strange, considering how integrated Tantra is with the indian view of reality itself.
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Re: Tantra Buddhism

Post by asahi »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:25 pm Theravāda doesn't accept an intermediate state between rebirths, which I believe is what Bardo is.
Theravada ? Or according to Pali canon ?
Some Theravadin appears to believe in an intermediate state .
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auto
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Re: Tantra Buddhism

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:25 pm ..
I think,
Suttas mention para loka, which is an afterlife. Regular person doesn't know it. It is beyond the scope of perception.
https://suttacentral.net/mn7/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:They understand: ‘There is this, there is what is worse than this, there is what is better than this, and there is an escape beyond the scope of perception.’
So ‘atthi idaṁ, atthi hīnaṁ, atthi paṇītaṁ, atthi imassa saññāgatassa uttari nissaraṇan’ti pajānāti.
para loka is the another all besides this all. Its not in series or in between the death and birth.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Tantra Buddhism

Post by Ceisiwr »

asahi wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 2:19 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:25 pm Theravāda doesn't accept an intermediate state between rebirths, which I believe is what Bardo is.
Theravada ? Or according to Pali canon ?
Some Theravadin appears to believe in an intermediate state .
Theravāda the tradition, not monks ordained in its lineage with contrary views to it.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Jack19990101
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Re: Tantra Buddhism

Post by Jack19990101 »

asahi wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 2:19 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:25 pm Theravāda doesn't accept an intermediate state between rebirths, which I believe is what Bardo is.
Theravada ? Or according to Pali canon ?
Some Theravadin appears to believe in an intermediate state .
I too wonder how this conclusion (rebirth is immediate) comes into play.
I think it must be from some snippet of some doctrine.
It seems too popular to be from an individual monk.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Tantra Buddhism

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:47 pm
asahi wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 2:19 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:25 pm Theravāda doesn't accept an intermediate state between rebirths, which I believe is what Bardo is.
Theravada ? Or according to Pali canon ?
Some Theravadin appears to believe in an intermediate state .
Theravāda the tradition, not monks ordained in its lineage with contrary views to it.
Because Asahi is not yet completely fluent in English, I think your post is a bit difficult to read for someone who is ESL. You meant "I referred to the tradition of Theravāda; not to monks ordained in the lineage of Theravāda but who have contrary views at variance with it." Your post was fine, but was actually very difficult English for a learner, speaking on terms of grammar alone. I do the same thing, but to a much worse degree, being bilingual and dealing with linguistic interference, so I'm hypervigilant concerning it.
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Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Tantra Buddhism

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:14 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:47 pm
asahi wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 2:19 pm

Theravada ? Or according to Pali canon ?
Some Theravadin appears to believe in an intermediate state .
Theravāda the tradition, not monks ordained in its lineage with contrary views to it.
Because Asahi is not yet completely fluent in English, I think your post is a bit difficult to read for someone who is ESL. You meant "I referred to the tradition of Theravāda; not to monks ordained in the lineage of Theravāda but who have contrary views at variance with it." Your post was fine, but was actually very difficult English for a learner, speaking on terms of grammar alone. I do the same thing, but to a much worse degree, being bilingual and dealing with linguistic interference, so I'm hypervigilant concerning it.
Thanks for drawing my attention to it.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Rambutan
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Re: Tantra Buddhism

Post by Rambutan »

asahi wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 2:19 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:25 pm Theravāda doesn't accept an intermediate state between rebirths, which I believe is what Bardo is.
Theravada ? Or according to Pali canon ?
Some Theravadin appears to believe in an intermediate state .
“Bardo” refers to a stretch of time between two points. It can also mean “gap”. For instance, a theater intermission is a bardo.
In Vajrayana Buddhism (tantra), the period from birth to death is a bardo. The gestation period of the embryo from conception to birth is a bardo. The time between death and becoming is also a bardo, even if it only for a half second or less.
But also, the period of dying and the breakdown and dissipation of the elements is a bardo period.

So, you can certainly assert that there is no duration of time between a person’s death and a subsequent becoming, but in doing so you have to define exactly what constitutes the moment of death. Is it the last exhale? The ceasing of the heart? The cessation in brain activity? The complete loss of heat from the body? Rigor mortis?

When does that death begin? Even if one asserts that there is a longer time period until the subsequent becoming (as the Tibetans do, suggesting some 49 days more or less) one still has to determine when “death” actually starts. But there is some flexibility because for them, the death bardo can, technically, be said to already be occurring even before the dying person has taken their last breath.

Perhaps some Pali Suttas identify what constitutes the exact moment of death.
Jack19990101
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Re: Tantra Buddhism

Post by Jack19990101 »

Yeah - If we contemplate what this statement entitles, it must first define what qualifies as death and rebirth, what is counted as "immediate".

"Immediacy" or its synonymous, never shows up once in key concepts, from sutta i have read.
A few time it is to encourage to practice without delay.

There is no mention of immediacy in sutta related to dependent origination, neither on anicca, nor rebirth.

How is this concept of "immediacy" come into play.

To define Immediacy as a Dhamma concept, like Post Above this one mentioned, is more taunting than our common language use of "immediate". Dhamma terms must be clear defined, repetitively defined by sutta, to suitable for contemplation, discernment or discovery.
4GreatHeavenlyKings
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Re: Tantra Buddhism

Post by 4GreatHeavenlyKings »

Rambutan wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 12:57 pm The Buddha gave teachings and answered questions put forth by farmers, kings, his own sangha, etc. for some forty years. But I don’t recall reading suttas where he interacts with sadhus, yogis or ascetics, of which india literally has, and had at that time, thousands. He even hung out with five of them just before attaining realization. Aside from those five, were there others?

I find this very strange, considering how integrated Tantra is with the indian view of reality itself.
There are many suttas in which the Buddha is portrayed as doing such. For example, in the Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta, he interacts with the wandering philosopher Vacchagotta, and in the Ādittapariyāya Sutta, the Buddha delivers a sermon to 1000 ascetics who formerly practised a sacred fire ritual.
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