arati

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asahi
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arati

Post by asahi »

Hi Pali teachers ,

Here appear to translate arati as delight ? Is that correct ?


MāradhītusuttaSN 4.25

Then Māra’s daughters Craving, Delight, and Lust went up to Māra the Wicked, and addressed him in verse:
Atha kho taṇhā ca arati ca ragā ca māradhītaro yena māro pāpimā tenupasaṅkamiṁsu; upasaṅkamitvā māraṁ pāpimantaṁ gāthāya ajjhabhāsiṁsu
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Sam Vara
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Re: arati

Post by Sam Vara »

I would have thought arati was discontent, aversion, boredom. Rati would be delight.

Maybe the Pali words were run together, as cārati, leaving the translator with the option of either word? :shrug:
asahi
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Re: arati

Post by asahi »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 11:54 am I would have thought arati was discontent, aversion, boredom. Rati would be delight.

Maybe the Pali words were run together, as cārati, leaving the translator with the option of either word? :shrug:
You might want to read again .

taṇhā ca
arati ca
ragā ca
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Sam Vara
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Re: arati

Post by Sam Vara »

asahi wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 1:15 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 11:54 am I would have thought arati was discontent, aversion, boredom. Rati would be delight.

Maybe the Pali words were run together, as cārati, leaving the translator with the option of either word? :shrug:
You might want to read again .

taṇhā ca
arati ca
ragā ca
I read that correctly, thanks! I mean perhaps they were run together in the original text, thereby accounting for the extra "a". As the other two are close in meaning, perhaps the translator thought that aversion was out of place and assumed an error in the Pali. There is also contextual evidence for this; all 3 daughters in this particular sutta attempt to seduce and entice the Buddha, and are referred to as "shining, glittering", which would be out of place if it were boredom/discontent/aversion. If this is Sujato's translation, my guess is that he would value poetic truth over literalism.
asahi
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Re: arati

Post by asahi »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 1:53 pm I read that correctly, thanks! I mean perhaps they were run together in the original text, thereby accounting for the extra "a". As the other two are close in meaning, perhaps the translator thought that aversion was out of place and assumed an error in the Pali. There is also contextual evidence for this; all 3 daughters in this particular sutta attempt to seduce and entice the Buddha, and are referred to as "shining, glittering", which would be out of place if it were boredom/discontent/aversion. If this is Sujato's translation, my guess is that he would value poetic truth over literalism.
Now that i have checked on agama , you are probably right since both sutras reads affection n delight .


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mikenz66
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Re: arati

Post by mikenz66 »

asahi wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 11:38 am Hi Pali teachers ,

Here appear to translate arati as delight ? Is that correct ?


MāradhītusuttaSN 4.25

Then Māra’s daughters Craving, Delight, and Lust went up to Māra the Wicked, and addressed him in verse:
Atha kho taṇhā ca arati ca ragā ca māradhītaro yena māro pāpimā tenupasaṅkamiṁsu; upasaṅkamitvā māraṁ pāpimantaṁ gāthāya ajjhabhāsiṁsu
You could query it on this Sutta Central thread: https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/ke ... ypos/24120 It could be a typo, or Bhikkhu Sujato may have some good reason. I must say would sound odd in English if it were resentment.

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mikenz66
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Re: arati

Post by mikenz66 »

Here's a comment about a variant:
Then Māra’s daughters Craving, Delight, and Lust went up to Māra the Wicked, and addressed him in verse:
Atha kho taṇhā ca arati ca ragā ca māradhītaro yena māro pāpimā tenupasaṅkamiṁsu; upasaṅkamitvā māraṁ pāpimantaṁ gāthāya ajjhabhāsiṁsu: Variant: aratiaratī (sya1ed, sya2ed) | ragārāgā (sya-all)
https://suttacentral.net/sn4.25/en/suja ... ript=latin
And here is a use of aratī
“Sensual pleasures are like swords and stakes
“Sattisūlūpamā kāmā,
the aggregates are their chopping block.
khandhāsaṁ adhikuṭṭanā;
What you call sensual delight
Yaṁ tvaṁ ‘kāmaratiṁ’ brūsi,
is now no delight for me.
aratī’ dāni sā mama.
https://suttacentral.net/thig3.7/en/suj ... ript=latin
See also:
“Even when I saw the sirens Craving, Delight, and Lust,
Sujato wrote: Māra’s daughters, the archetypal temptresses. Their failed seduction is told at SN 4.25.
Arati seems to be an error in the Pali tradition for rati.
“Disvāna taṇhaṁ aratiṁ ragañca,
Variants wrote:Variant: aratiṁ ragañca → aratiñca rāgaṁ (sya-all, mr)
I had no desire for sex.
Nāhosi chando api methunasmiṁ;
https://suttacentral.net/snp4.9/en/suja ... ript=latin
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Assaji
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Re: arati

Post by Assaji »

Hi Asahi,
asahi wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 11:38 am Here appear to translate arati as delight ? Is that correct ?
This is wrong. Unfortunately, Sujato's translations are often misleading.
Discontent (Arati), was one of the three daughters of Māra, the others being craving (Taṇhā) and lust (Ragā).
http://www.aimwell.org/DPPN/arati.html

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thomaslaw
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Re: arati

Post by thomaslaw »

Regarding the three daughters of Māra, Choong Mun-keat provides also the Chinese versions of Mara Samyutta, p. 41, note 6:
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mikenz66
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Re: arati

Post by mikenz66 »

thomaslaw wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 1:29 am Regarding the three daughters of Māra, Choong Mun-keat provides also the Chinese versions of Mara Samyutta, p. 41, note 6:
Thanks for that. The second name in Pali version seems to be an outlier:
Screenshot from 2022-05-18 13-51-54.png
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Re: arati

Post by thomaslaw »

Should 'Arati' ('Discontent') in the Pali version be corrected to 'Rati'?
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mikenz66
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Re: arati

Post by mikenz66 »

thomaslaw wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 8:56 am Should 'Arati' ('Discontent') in the Pali version be corrected to 'Rati'?
I think that's what Bhikkhu Sujato's comment above is suggesting: viewtopic.php?p=676897#p676897

The paper you quoted was an interesting example of how studying parallels in from different schools may shed some light on possible errors.

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