Bh. Nyanamoli on 1st jhana, cessation of speech and rebirth

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DooDoot
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Re: Bh. Nyanamoli on 1st jhana, cessation of speech and rebirth

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 7:34 am what refuted? where? send link? is it refuted by senior monks or arhants or is it refuted by online forum users who cant maintain 8 precepts everyday?
i reported your 1st post here as being off-topic. if this monk was a good teacher, you would be able to answer the questions on this topic (rather than post more unsubstantiated guru worship). every poster on this topic says they cannot understand this monk

please answer the OP question below to prove what you have posted is true. thanks :thanks: .
lostitude wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:32 pm Hello,

I was wondering if anyone here had seen this video:


In it, Bhante Nyanamoli discusses several points that I can’t quite grasp.
First, he seems to be saying (please correct me if I’m wrong) that to achieve first jhana, one must get rid of the assumption that speech is external to thinking. I can’t wrap my head around this notion. Is there anyone who believes they stop thinking when they talk as if those were two separate things? It really puzzles me.

Then around the 26-29 min mark he briefly talks about rebirth and makes what sounds like a very interesting point, but then again I’m not sure I understood it correctly. He appears to be saying that rebirth and recollection of previous lives are possible because one’s experience is internal to oneself, it does not depend on the outside world, so when we die and live again, we are just picking up the same point of view but in an internal context that’s different from the one before. Or something like that.
He then goes on to discuss the assumption of externality as apparently deluded - but again I really don’t think I’ve understood this properly. Is he in a way advocating for the idealistic view that matter "outside" doesn’t have any objective existence?

Thanks.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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confusedlayman
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Re: Bh. Nyanamoli on 1st jhana, cessation of speech and rebirth

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 7:41 am
confusedlayman wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 7:34 am what refuted? where? send link? is it refuted by senior monks or arhants or is it refuted by online forum users who cant maintain 8 precepts everyday?
i reported your 1st post here as being off-topic. if this monk was a good teacher, you would be able to answer the questions on this topic (rather than post more unsubstantiated guru worship). every post on this topic says they cannot understand this monk

please answer the OP question below.
lostitude wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:32 pm Hello,

I was wondering if anyone here had seen this video:


In it, Bhante Nyanamoli discusses several points that I can’t quite grasp.
First, he seems to be saying (please correct me if I’m wrong) that to achieve first jhana, one must get rid of the assumption that speech is external to thinking. I can’t wrap my head around this notion. Is there anyone who believes they stop thinking when they talk as if those were two separate things? It really puzzles me.

Then around the 26-29 min mark he briefly talks about rebirth and makes what sounds like a very interesting point, but then again I’m not sure I understood it correctly. He appears to be saying that rebirth and recollection of previous lives are possible because one’s experience is internal to oneself, it does not depend on the outside world, so when we die and live again, we are just picking up the same point of view but in an internal context that’s different from the one before. Or something like that.
He then goes on to discuss the assumption of externality as apparently deluded - but again I really don’t think I’ve understood this properly. Is he in a way advocating for the idealistic view that matter "outside" doesn’t have any objective existence?

Thanks.
when u speak, u hear the voice in ur head and that's how u know what is spoken by physical action created sound of ur mouth... even when mouth is not opened but mind is talking via thinking still u hear the sound ... sound coming to mind door by thinking or by actual sound of speaking is cognised my mind door and this is distraction for jhana because consciousness discerns various sound and makes meaning leading to sensuality related to mind voice .. what problem you have in it? mind voice is sensuality and it is hinderance for jhana...
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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DooDoot
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Re: Bh. Nyanamoli on 1st jhana, cessation of speech and rebirth

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 7:46 am when u speak, u hear the voice in ur head and that's how u know what is spoken by physical action created sound of ur mouth... even when mouth is not opened but mind is talking via thinking still u hear the sound ... sound coming to mind door by thinking or by actual sound of speaking is cognised my mind door and this is distraction for jhana because consciousness discerns various sound and makes meaning leading to sensuality related to mind voice .. what problem you have in it?
thought (vitakka) is not "sound" ("sadda") in Buddhism.
confusedlayman wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 7:46 ammind voice is sensuality
non-sense. sensuality is never called "mind voice". for example, the mind voice thinking about non-sensuality & renunciation (as described in MN 19) is not classed as sensuality. u appear to be making up you own ideology
confusedlayman wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 7:46 amand it is hinderance for jhana...
the suttas appear to never say this. the suttas only say speech ceases in the 1st jhana. for example, a Buddha can give a 2 hour dhamma talk using speech then enter jhana probably 5 minutes later. obviously speech is not a hindrance to jhana

it appears every point u made is wrong

if Nyanamoli said the same as u, Nyanamoli is also wrong, just as Nagarjuna was wrong :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Bh. Nyanamoli on 1st jhana, cessation of speech and rebirth

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 9:17 am
confusedlayman wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 7:46 am when u speak, u hear the voice in ur head and that's how u know what is spoken by physical action created sound of ur mouth... even when mouth is not opened but mind is talking via thinking still u hear the sound ... sound coming to mind door by thinking or by actual sound of speaking is cognised my mind door and this is distraction for jhana because consciousness discerns various sound and makes meaning leading to sensuality related to mind voice .. what problem you have in it?
thought (vitakka) is not "sound" ("sadda") in Buddhism.
confusedlayman wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 7:46 ammind voice is sensuality
non-sense. sensuality is never called "mind voice". for example, the mind voice thinking about non-sensuality & renunciation (as described in MN 19) is not classed as sensuality. u appear to be making up you own ideology
confusedlayman wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 7:46 amand it is hinderance for jhana...
the suttas appear to never say this. the suttas only say speech ceases in the 1st jhana. for example, a Buddha can give a 2 hour dhamma talk using speech then enter jhana probably 5 minutes later. obviously speech is not a hindrance to jhana

it appears every point u made is wrong

if Nyanamoli said the same as u, Nyanamoli is also wrong, just as Nagarjuna was wrong :smile:
Mind voice or mind chatter is hinderence if its related to sensual thing... vitaka or vicara is not mind chatter lol ..and what i said in above post is my view from my understanding of video

When buddha after speech want to enter jhana then he should not speak after sitting for meditation ...
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
keller
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Re: Bh. Nyanamoli on 1st jhana, cessation of speech and rebirth

Post by keller »

Adding to this year-old topic because of recent insights I've had that will hopefully help those who have a hard time understanding Venerable Nyanamoli's teaching come closer to the understanding he's trying to guide people towards.

Using western philosophical terms, we can classify two primary forms of upadana: realism and idealism. Realism gratuitously postulates a world external to the mind, while idealism gratuitously asserts the primacy of the Self as that which experiences Being. One essentializes things, the other essentializes consciousness of things. Both are wrong view, sustained by craving and ignorance/bad faith.

Venerable Nyanamoli is pointing out here in his analysis of jhana that speaking is an action that is frequently bound up with and motivated by mistaken assumptions: upadana as discussed above. In theory, speaking is neutral with respect to its wholesomeness. But practically speaking for all who are not arahants, the act of speaking is invariably bound up with and motivated by assumptions of an external world filled with Others who need to receive the information we have to provide, information we select and fabricate out of thoughts and narratives centered around our sense of self. Basically, speaking is an intentional action that happens to be an excellent vehicle for ignorance. Thus, in refraining from speaking, one has temporarily paused one of the more gross means by which ignorance is ordinarily maintained. Combined with the necessary basis of virtue, appropriate attention to the reality of one's existential condition, and seclusion, the first jhana naturally arises.
Jack19990101
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Re: Bh. Nyanamoli on 1st jhana, cessation of speech and rebirth

Post by Jack19990101 »

Not quite so - the direction of your contemplation is wrong.

(I didn't read the vid, but I just expand from OP's note)
It is talking about
Thinking is sankhara of speech, as breathing to body.
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Re: Bh. Nyanamoli on 1st jhana, cessation of speech and rebirth

Post by keller »

That thinking and pondering is a necessary existential basis for speech is another aspect of the video, yes. Such contemplation is frequently emphasized by Venerable Nyanamoli as a means of directing people's attention to the thrownness of experience, to the fact that all of our intentions, everything we pay attention to and wrap ourselves up in always has as its basis something else that we can not ultimately take ownership of.
Thinking is sankhara of speech, as breathing to body.
Thinking is the sankhara of speech, but it is actually the body that is the sankhara of breathing, not the other way around. Awareness of breathing cannot even be conceived of without body being given as an existential prior. However, as in the fourth jhana, the body can be discerned without breathing. You can also, you know, just stop breathing for a moment. The body remains.

Regardless, all of this "hierarchy of existential primordiality" stuff is just continuously pointing people towards thrownness-- towards the ungraspable, empty, temporal "thus-ness" that the puthujana gratuitously attempts to find solid ground within. The deeper you go into the hierarchy, the more obvious it becomes that nothing truly has any ownable foundation. The body is simply "there", and any meditator can tell you how obviously outside of our ownership and control the process of thinking is. How much more so those less primordial aspects of engaged experience?

For an arahant, even designating a hierarchy of things as more or less primordial is gratuitous. It's just sankharas all the way down.
Last edited by keller on Fri May 20, 2022 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Joe.c
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Re: Bh. Nyanamoli on 1st jhana, cessation of speech and rebirth

Post by Joe.c »

Watched the video, It is painful indeed. I stop after 10 min mark.

The trainer has lot of fear (one who is being questioned), while the questioner is like having an authority. Next the questioner have "Arms crossed over the chest", this create barrier (aka 'i know more'). Then, The trainer try/probe to get "right answer" by slow answering. 😅

If one explain true dhamma, these hindrances (fear, ego) need to be removed otherwise there is no way the listener or questioner will benefit from true dhamma.

Now let get into the details. Look like the questioner is confused indeed. The questioner said around 8-10 min:
without Desire, there is no thinking & pondering.
Desire is part of tanha. There is not only 1 type of desires look SN 12.2 or dn 15 for details.

When vedana arise, then tanha arise, etc.
When vedana cease, then tanha cease, etc

While vaci sankhara (vittaka vicara) is part of sankhara.

When avijja arise, then sankhara arise, etc.
When avijja cease, then sankhara cease, etc.

If one try to explain from DO perspective, but it is complex.
One needs to calm mind to analyze the components one by one and see whether in real practice has been done (cease/stop) or not.

So, sankhara and tanha or even canda are different. They are not the same.

When one is at 1st jhana, there is no more sensual desire and/or unskillful thoughts in the mind so vitakka vicara is mainly good (skillful) thoughts or neutral thoughts. But it doesn't mean there is completely no desire. Because there is still desire for stay in 1st jhana (i.e. ruparaga). Otherwise there is no way that this person can stay in 1st jhana.

This is why non returner still needs to remove ruparaga and aruparaga.

Also, If there is no thinking & pondering that means one is at 2nd jhana. If one is at 1st jhana, speech has ceased.

Usually person who is at 1st jhana will hate to talk nonsensical subjects such as non dhamma or other wordly subjects. Because talking will create distrubance in mind.

For 1st jhana, it is just as Sutta described:
Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful behaviors, they enter and remain in the first jhana, while questioning and answering is present, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, .
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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Re: Bh. Nyanamoli on 1st jhana, cessation of speech and rebirth

Post by Ceisiwr »

Joe.c wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 2:14 am
Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful behaviors, they enter and remain in the first jhana, while questioning and answering is present, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, .
Do you have a source for this translation, or is it one of your own?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Joe.c
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Re: Bh. Nyanamoli on 1st jhana, cessation of speech and rebirth

Post by Joe.c »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 4:11 pm
Joe.c wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 2:14 am
Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful behaviors, they enter and remain in the first jhana, while questioning and answering is present, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, .
Do you have a source for this translation, or is it one of your own?
I translated those. But i heard also from Late Bhante Punnaji especially the vitakka vicara. But in his book, he used other terms. It is difficult to translate the jhana properly. One needs to practice and look at various angles, then one can know. When you are in jhana, you will have the wisdom. But need to continuously stay in jhana to know for sure.

Also, don’t get to attach to any translations. It is better if you understand a single sentence that you can use for your own practice. If you can’t understand the words, then don’t use it. Try to implement the easy words into your practice. True dhamma can be practice in real life.

Below videos may give some ideas. If you are looking at vitakka vicara translation, he described it on 2nd video around 20sec mark.

May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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Re: Bh. Nyanamoli on 1st jhana, cessation of speech and rebirth

Post by bpallister »

rolling_boulder wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:42 pm My impression of the Ven. Nyanamoli is that while he is clearly very intelligent and so on he needs to work on finding a presentation that is truly worthy of the Dhamma.

Agreed with this. a lot of his stuff goes right over my head.
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Re: Bh. Nyanamoli on 1st jhana, cessation of speech and rebirth

Post by bpallister »

keller wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:00 am Adding to this year-old topic because of recent insights I've had that will hopefully help those who have a hard time understanding Venerable Nyanamoli's teaching come closer to the understanding he's trying to guide people towards.

Using western philosophical terms, we can classify two primary forms of upadana: realism and idealism. Realism gratuitously postulates a world external to the mind, while idealism gratuitously asserts the primacy of the Self as that which experiences Being. One essentializes things, the other essentializes consciousness of things. Both are wrong view, sustained by craving and ignorance/bad faith.

Venerable Nyanamoli is pointing out here in his analysis of jhana that speaking is an action that is frequently bound up with and motivated by mistaken assumptions: upadana as discussed above. In theory, speaking is neutral with respect to its wholesomeness. But practically speaking for all who are not arahants, the act of speaking is invariably bound up with and motivated by assumptions of an external world filled with Others who need to receive the information we have to provide, information we select and fabricate out of thoughts and narratives centered around our sense of self. Basically, speaking is an intentional action that happens to be an excellent vehicle for ignorance. Thus, in refraining from speaking, one has temporarily paused one of the more gross means by which ignorance is ordinarily maintained. Combined with the necessary basis of virtue, appropriate attention to the reality of one's existential condition, and seclusion, the first jhana naturally arises.
This would seemingly discount right speech
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Re: Bh. Nyanamoli on 1st jhana, cessation of speech and rebirth

Post by keller »

bpallister wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 12:38 am
rolling_boulder wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:42 pm My impression of the Ven. Nyanamoli is that while he is clearly very intelligent and so on he needs to work on finding a presentation that is truly worthy of the Dhamma.

Agreed with this. a lot of his stuff goes right over my head.
I can highly recommend reading foundational texts of phenomenology or existentialism for a broader context to interpret Venerable Nyanamoli's teaching. Books like Heidegger's Being and Time and Sartre's Being and Nothingness are, of course, valuable for any contemplative person to read whether or not they want to understand Venerable Nyanamoli's teaching specifically. Just the first 100 pages of Being and Nothingness might be enough.
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Re: Bh. Nyanamoli on 1st jhana, cessation of speech and rebirth

Post by keller »

bpallister wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 12:46 am This would seemingly discount right speech
Just as alms-mendicancy can fulfill Right Livelihood, silence can fulfill Right Speech.
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Re: Bh. Nyanamoli on 1st jhana, cessation of speech and rebirth

Post by wenjaforever »

Brahmas are telepathic thus they're also omniscient. This is why they have no need for talk. They simply read your mind.
money is worthless toilet paper • the tongue has no bone (a person might say one thing but it cannot be further from the truth) • you cannot teach a goat math as in you cannot teach the dhamma to a dumb person
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