Everything arisen from a cause...

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Post Reply
ilpo
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:15 am

Everything arisen from a cause...

Post by ilpo »

It can be asserted that nothing happens without something else influencing it.

So imagine an air bubble rising from the bottom of the ocean... It rises towards the surface and dances around under the influence of various different pressures... It's existence is composed of elements (I use the 4 element division here for simplicity), and our bodies are made of exactly the same 4 elements. Our bodies are also exactly same way under various pressures, including the pressures inside our body.

The late David Bohm, who was a renowned physicist and deeply interested in consciousness etc. said in one of his interviews that our thoughts are a conditioned reflex.

And so is the "I" thought which appears always after an event. It is also possible for a thing that arises and vanishes, to not arise. Such as the "I" thought. It doesn't arise every moment. Every time it arises it is different. It can even be said "I" did that, of a thing one does with a video game character, and the emotions arising from success and loss, can be of any magnitude that is available. Depending on the depth of identification with the character.

But I know, that I am not just a thought, because thought appears to me, "in front" of my awareness. One who thinks lots of certain type of thoughts gets them more often, and that also comes from "pressures" from outside, mainly from the speech of others.

So if our body is made of not-self materials, like dead piece of wood on a beach, some water and heat etc. and our thoughts are the echoing of learned patterns of conventional words and concepts, it makes hearing the good dhamma and associating with wise persons ever more valuable.

What do you fellow buddhist forum dwellers think about those ideas? Are they in-line with the dhamma?
:thanks:
User avatar
mjaviem
Posts: 2299
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:06 pm

Re: Everything arisen from a cause...

Post by mjaviem »

ilpo wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 7:58 pm It can be asserted that nothing happens without something else influencing it.
...
Nice, but how does it relate with the Buddhist teaching?
ilpo wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 7:58 pm ... Our bodies are also exactly same way under various pressures...

... our thoughts are a conditioned reflex.

... the "I" thought which appears always after an event...

... "pressures" from outside, mainly from the speech of others.

... made of not-self materials... echoing of learned patterns of conventional words and concepts...
The Dhamma is well expounded by the Buddha. I recommend studying dependent origination from Suttas.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
SarathW
Posts: 21226
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Everything arisen from a cause...

Post by SarathW »

What Buddha said was as follows. So it is something similar to what you have mentioned.
When this exists, this comes to be. With the arising (uppada) of this, this arises. When this does not exist, this does not come to be. With the cessation (nirodha) of this, this ceases.

— Samyutta Nikaya 12.61.[41]
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
form
Posts: 3471
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Re: Everything arisen from a cause...

Post by form »

This is confirmed. Even meditation success is due to
pre-conditioning.
pegembara
Posts: 3465
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: Everything arisen from a cause...

Post by pegembara »

ilpo wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 7:58 pm
But I know, that I am not just a thought, because thought appears to me, "in front" of my awareness. One who thinks lots of certain type of thoughts gets them more often, and that also comes from "pressures" from outside, mainly from the speech of others.

:thanks:
That's what you think! Knowing that you are not just a thought is a good place to be in. More important is to realize that you are just a thought!
Awareness is just a function just as the screen performs a certain function.

Without a movie, there is no screen! There is no separation between them.
"Very well then, Kotthita my friend, I will give you an analogy; for there are cases where it is through the use of an analogy that intelligent people can understand the meaning of what is being said. It is as if two sheaves of reeds were to stand leaning against one another. In the same way, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name & form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of suffering & stress.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
When this exists, this comes to be. With the arising (uppada) of this, this arises. When this does not exist, this does not come to be. With the cessation (nirodha) of this, this ceases.
"Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all this is experience, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left.
No separation between the experiencer and the experience.
Shen-hsiu presents the following verse which Hung-jen characterizes as incomplete in understanding.

The body is the bodhi tree,
The mind is like a clear mirror.
At all times we must strive to polish it,
And must not let the dust collect.

Hui-neng offers the following alternative verse:

Bodhi originally has no tree,
The mirror(-like mind) has no stand.
Buddha-nature (emptiness/oneness) is always clean and pure;
Where is there room for dust (to alight)?

https://pages.uoregon.edu/munno/OregonC ... gVerse.htm
"When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .irel.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
Alino
Posts: 650
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:15 pm
Contact:

Re: Everything arisen from a cause...

Post by Alino »

If these reflections disenchant and free your mind from emotional boundage about what is conditioned - is good.
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
Bundokji
Posts: 6494
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Everything arisen from a cause...

Post by Bundokji »

ilpo wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 7:58 pm It can be asserted that nothing happens without something else influencing it.
Such assertion is not uncommon, but i am not sure if the Buddha ever confirmed or denied such an assertion. In MN 101, he refuted the following:
The Blessed One said, "Monks, there are some brahmans & contemplatives who teach in this way, who have this view: 'Whatever a person experiences — pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain — all is caused by what was done in the past. Thus, with the destruction of old actions through asceticism, and with the non-doing of new actions, there will be no flow into the future. With no flow into the future, there is the ending of action. With the ending of action, the ending of stress. With the ending of stress, the ending of feeling. With the ending of feeling, all suffering & stress will be exhausted.' Such is the teaching of the Niganthas.

"Going to Niganthas who teach in this way, I have asked them, 'Is it true, friend Niganthas, that you teach in this way, that you have this view: "Whatever a person experiences — pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain — all is caused by what was done in the past. Thus, with the destruction of old actions through asceticism, and with the non-doing of new actions, there will be no flow into the future. With no flow into the future, there is the ending of action. With the ending of action, the ending of stress. With the ending of stress, the ending of feeling. With the ending of feeling, all suffering & stress will be exhausted"?'

"Having been asked this by me, the Niganthas admitted it, 'Yes.'

"So I said to them, 'But friends, do you know that you existed in the past, and that you did not not exist?'

"'No, friend.'

"'And do you know that you did evil actions in the past, and that you did not not do them?'

"'No, friend.'

"'And do you know that you did such-and-such evil actions in the past?'

"'No, friend.'

"'And do you know that so-and-so much stress has been exhausted, or that so-and-so much stress remains to be exhausted, or that with the exhaustion of so-and-so much stress all stress will be exhausted?'

"'No, friend.'

"'But do you know what is the abandoning of unskillful mental qualities and the attainment of skillful mental qualities in the here-&-now?'

"'No, friend.'

"'So, friends, it seems that you don't know that you existed in the past, and that you did not not exist... you don't know what is the abandoning of unskillful mental qualities and the attainment of skillful mental qualities in the here-&-now. That being the case, it is not proper for you to assert that, "Whatever a person experiences — pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain — all is caused by what was done in the past. Thus, with the destruction of old actions through asceticism, and with the non-doing of new actions, there will be no flow into the future. With no flow into the future, there is the ending of action. With the ending of action, the ending of stress. With the ending of stress, the ending of feeling. With the ending of feeling, all suffering & stress will be exhausted."

"'If, however, you knew that you existed in the past, and that you did not not exist; if you knew that you did evil actions in the past, and that you did not not do them; if you knew that you did such-and-such evil actions in the past; you don't know that so-and-so much stress has been exhausted, or that so-and-so much stress remains to be exhausted, or that with the exhaustion of so-and-so much stress all stress will be exhausted; if you knew what is the abandoning of unskillful mental qualities and the attainment of skillful mental qualities in the here-&-now, then — that being the case — it would be proper for you to assert that, "Whatever a person experiences — pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain — all is caused by what was done in the past. Thus, with the destruction of old actions through asceticism, and with the non-doing of new actions, there will be no flow into the future. With no flow into the future, there is the ending of action. With the ending of action, the ending of stress. With the ending of stress, the ending of feeling. With the ending of feeling, all suffering & stress will be exhausted."
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Joe.c
Posts: 1484
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:01 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: Everything arisen from a cause...

Post by Joe.c »

ilpo wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 7:58 pm It can be asserted that nothing happens without something else influencing it.
You have your senses, influences (asava) enter from your senses. This is why Buddha ask to guard senses. By establishing to Sati (attention to within, away from senses). Try to look up types of asava in sutta. But it is quite deep, not easy to understand.

Note: most people translate asava as defilement. It kind of lost in translation. I learn the word translation from Late bhante Punnaji, then buddha teaching fall in places. You might want to look up about him.
So imagine an air bubble rising from the bottom of the ocean... It rises towards the surface and dances around under the influence of various different pressures... It's existence is composed of elements (I use the 4 element division here for simplicity), and our bodies are made of exactly the same 4 elements. Our bodies are also exactly same way under various pressures, including the pressures inside our body.
Own mind is the one create stress/pressures. By guard senses and establish wisdom on your mind, then one can stop all the stress/pressures.
The late David Bohm, who was a renowned physicist and deeply interested in consciousness etc. said in one of his interviews that our thoughts are a conditioned reflex.

And so is the "I" thought which appears always after an event. It is also possible for a thing that arises and vanishes, to not arise. Such as the "I" thought. It doesn't arise every moment. Every time it arises it is different. It can even be said "I" did that, of a thing one does with a video game character, and the emotions arising from success and loss, can be of any magnitude that is available. Depending on the depth of identification with the character.

But I know, that I am not just a thought, because thought appears to me, "in front" of my awareness. One who thinks lots of certain type of thoughts gets them more often, and that also comes from "pressures" from outside, mainly from the speech of others.
Look like he can’t understand the 1st jhana. Without understanding that, one can’t let go thought and progress to understand anatta. Isn’t he the person who used to be closed with J. Krishnamurthy?
So if our body is made of not-self materials, like dead piece of wood on a beach, some water and heat etc. and our thoughts are the echoing of learned patterns of conventional words and concepts, it makes hearing the good dhamma and associating with wise persons ever more valuable.

What do you fellow buddhist forum dwellers think about those ideas? Are they in-line with the dhamma?
:thanks:
The highlighted words are important. Because that is the key to enter the stream (aka. Opening of dhamma vision/eye).

4 factors of stream enterer on SN 55.5.
1. Associate with true persons (ariya)
2. Hearing true dhamma from true persons
3. Focus attention to sources (yoniso manasikara)
4. Practice the true dhamma in your life (24/7) based on your understanding.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
ilpo
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:15 am

Re: Everything arisen from a cause...

Post by ilpo »

Hi all, and thanks for the answers! I wasn't expecting such precise answers and many sutta quotes, so thank you for that. :anjali:
I was already familiar with most of them. But the "reed-simile" from 'Pegempara' was new and very interesting. Shows the intelligence of the Buddha, but that sequence of causes is very hard to grasp - I cannot understand every part of the dependent arising sequences the Buddha has described. But I know the "drift of the dhamma" which should be basically leading to ease and unification of mind and lessening of greed, anger, delusion, and to the disappearing of doubts. Because if one gains some samadhi, there is no hankering for anything and no questions. Yet I know that at the beginning the "practice" does not lead straight to ease, because one should go against the defilements to some degree.

The kind of intellectual understanding of many facets and aspects of not-self aren't of much help if one doesn't have a calm mind - or ease and wellbeing. Without those, conceptualizing everything as not-self actually creates a state on unease and emptiness (in a negative sense) if one does not have any samadhi. :shrug: So for me it's better to not try to push the not-self at this point intellectually, as I am a lay person. But I have been studying the non-self aspect of things for years, so it's not new. Dalai Lama's book "How to see yourself as you really are" takes a special kind of deep dive into the matter, and I've read it many times during the years.

Just today I listened a very good dhamma talk from Ajahn Anan which addressed this issue exactly. Here is the link:
"Seeing Our True Selves | Ajahn Anan | 21 May 2022"


Also a very good dhamma talk by Ajahn Brahmali addressed the same issues quite soon after the start:
"DN1 Brahmajala Sutta – The Prime Net (part 7) | Ajahn Brahmali | 22 May 2022"


So thanks for the answers, which I'll read again and will ponder on them, and I may write again (discussion on the dhamma is good).
I think the video from Ajahn Anan pretty much answered everything in a clear way. :)
User avatar
Rambutan
Posts: 752
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:35 pm

Re: Everything arisen from a cause...

Post by Rambutan »

ilpo wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 7:58 pm But I know, that I am not just a thought, because thought appears to me, "in front" of my awareness.
By what means do you “know” this?
pegembara
Posts: 3465
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: Everything arisen from a cause...

Post by pegembara »

ilpo wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 4:39 pm Hi all, and thanks for the answers! I wasn't expecting such precise answers and many sutta quotes, so thank you for that. :anjali:
I was already familiar with most of them. But the "reed-simile" from 'Pegempara' was new and very interesting. Shows the intelligence of the Buddha, but that sequence of causes is very hard to grasp - I cannot understand every part of the dependent arising sequences the Buddha has described. But I know the "drift of the dhamma" which should be basically leading to ease and unification of mind and lessening of greed, anger, delusion, and to the disappearing of doubts. Because if one gains some samadhi, there is no hankering for anything and no questions. Yet I know that at the beginning the "practice" does not lead straight to ease, because one should go against the defilements to some degree.

The kind of intellectual understanding of many facets and aspects of not-self aren't of much help if one doesn't have a calm mind - or ease and wellbeing. Without those, conceptualizing everything as not-self actually creates a state on unease and emptiness (in a negative sense) if one does not have any samadhi. :shrug: So for me it's better to not try to push the not-self at this point intellectually, as I am a lay person. But I have been studying the non-self aspect of things for years, so it's not new. Dalai Lama's book "How to see yourself as you really are" takes a special kind of deep dive into the matter, and I've read it many times during the years.

Just today I listened a very good dhamma talk from Ajahn Anan which addressed this issue exactly. Here is the link:
"Seeing Our True Selves | Ajahn Anan | 21 May 2022"


Also a very good dhamma talk by Ajahn Brahmali addressed the same issues quite soon after the start:
"DN1 Brahmajala Sutta – The Prime Net (part 7) | Ajahn Brahmali | 22 May 2022"


So thanks for the answers, which I'll read again and will ponder on them, and I may write again (discussion on the dhamma is good).
I think the video from Ajahn Anan pretty much answered everything in a clear way. :)

That is exactly what is needed.
Highlighted text.

Then it occurred to me,

I recall sitting in the cool shade of the rose-apple tree while my father the Sakyan was off working. Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, I entered and remained in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.

Could that be the path to awakening?

Stemming from that memory came the realization:

‘That is the path to awakening!’

Saṅgāravasutta
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
ilpo
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:15 am

Re: Everything arisen from a cause...

Post by ilpo »

Rambutan wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 5:20 pm
ilpo wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 7:58 pm But I know, that I am not just a thought, because thought appears to me, "in front" of my awareness.
By what means do you “know” this?
I try to answer you question with my own words, I'm not trying to teach anything here, or describe some special accomplishment:

I cannot say an answer to "by what means?"

I refer to the experience of awareness. Like if somebody asks you, "are you aware", you can instantly know "yes".
And the concept of "I" or "self" can (and should) be left out of it, because that is just the mind's "I-making" jumping on to the stage AFTER the knowing.

Trying to pin it down to concepts only makes a mess...
User avatar
Rambutan
Posts: 752
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:35 pm

Re: Everything arisen from a cause...

Post by Rambutan »

ilpo wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 8:31 pm
Rambutan wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 5:20 pm
ilpo wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 7:58 pm But I know, that I am not just a thought, because thought appears to me, "in front" of my awareness.
By what means do you “know” this?
I refer to the experience of awareness. Like if somebody asks you, "are you aware", you can instantly know "yes".
And the concept of "I" or "self" can (and should) be left out of it, because that is just the mind's "I-making" jumping on to the stage AFTER the knowing.
Very likely there will be challenges if you separate “I” from the thought of “I” because “I” is also only a thought.
If you say there is “I” and then secondarily that this “I” is “knowing” or that there is truly an “I” that owns or possesses awareness, maybe that is not a good place to start.
So, when I asked what do you mean by “know”
I meant can you break that down into the process of knower/knowing.
ilpo
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:15 am

Re: Everything arisen from a cause...

Post by ilpo »

Rambutan wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 1:43 pm
ilpo wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 8:31 pm
Rambutan wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 5:20 pm

By what means do you “know” this?
I refer to the experience of awareness. Like if somebody asks you, "are you aware", you can instantly know "yes".
And the concept of "I" or "self" can (and should) be left out of it, because that is just the mind's "I-making" jumping on to the stage AFTER the knowing.
Very likely there will be challenges if you separate “I” from the thought of “I” because “I” is also only a thought.
If you say there is “I” and then secondarily that this “I” is “knowing” or that there is truly an “I” that owns or possesses awareness, maybe that is not a good place to start.
So, when I asked what do you mean by “know”
I meant can you break that down into the process of knower/knowing.
Sorry, but this is confusing. The concepts would need clarification to discuss about this.

Every doing (volition) arises from the conceptually created nexus-I-thought. But in the "knowing" that I'm talking about here, the "I-thought" disappears (for a while). But I don't see any benefit in rolling on this matter here. Silence and the ending of doing speaks for itself.
wenjaforever
Posts: 390
Joined: Tue May 24, 2022 4:44 am

Re: Everything arisen from a cause...

Post by wenjaforever »

Thought ceases in 2nd jhana because here you are even more potent and can even read the deepest of mind. This way you don't even need an active mind anymore hence you can simply know things instantly. In 3rd jhana joy ceases, for you have no need for joy anymore. For you don't find joy in joy itself anymore.
money is worthless toilet paper • the tongue has no bone (a person might say one thing but it cannot be further from the truth) • you cannot teach a goat math as in you cannot teach the dhamma to a dumb person
Post Reply