Five Hindrances - Buddha

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NAD
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Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by NAD »

Was Buddha always in Jhana? If not then he would have had the five hindrances present, how can this be reconciled?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by Ceisiwr »

NAD wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 9:03 pm Was Buddha always in Jhana? If not then he would have had the five hindrances present, how can this be reconciled?
No he wasn't always in Jhāna, despite the hindrances being abolished. He wasn't always in Jhāna because according to Theravāda (which I agree with here) Jhāna is a deep state of absorption into a meditation object. In order to enter Jhāna then the Buddha had to become mindful of a meditation object (such as the breath), bring attention to it and apply initial and sustained thought towards it (vitakka-vicāra). He can enter this state without any problem, since as you say the hindrances are no longer there. When walking around though, talking to people or eating, he isn't in any Jhāna.

The question you ask really is a problem for those who view Jhāna as a non-absorbed state. It will be interesting to see what they have to say.
“Mendicants, I do not see a single thing that, when it’s not tamed, is so very harmful as the mind. A wild mind is very harmful.”

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NAD
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by NAD »

Okay, so you are stating that Jhana isn’t just the removal of the five hindrances, but also we would need to be absorbed into a mediation object, meaning that no hindrances doesn’t automatically equal Jhana?

There is a Sutta, AN 3.63 which suggests that the Buddha is in Jhana while walking, standing, sitting and lying down, but I do not think there are anymore Suttas suggesting this and this Sutta has no parallel.
Last edited by NAD on Sun May 22, 2022 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by Ceisiwr »

NAD wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 9:26 pm Okay, so you are stating that Jhana isn’t just the removal of the five hindrances, but also we would need to be absorbed into a mediation object, meaning that no hindrances doesn’t automatically equal Jhana?
Yes. New born babies don't have the hindrances yet, just the tendency for them later. They aren't always in Jhāna. Jhāna is the result of totally letting go, where the mind is completely still and absorbed into a meditation.
There is a Sutta, AN 3,61 which suggests that the Buddha is in Jhana while walking, standing, sitting and lying down, but I do not think there are anymore Suttas suggesting this and this Sutta has no parallel.
I think you have referenced the wrong sutta. I'm aware of the one I think you mean though. Analysis of the grammar indicates that it's not necessarily the Jhāna that is being referenced too whilst walking. If it were though then the sutta talks about walking around whilst in the 4th Jhāna. During the 4th Jhāna the body is so still that breathing ceases. The mind too is perfectly still. Does it make sense to say that someone who is so tranquil that their breathing stops can then walk around up and down hills on a hot day in India, much less have a totally still mind when talking to people they meet?
“Mendicants, I do not see a single thing that, when it’s not tamed, is so very harmful as the mind. A wild mind is very harmful.”

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NAD
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by NAD »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 9:32 pm
NAD wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 9:26 pm
There is a Sutta, AN 3,61 which suggests that the Buddha is in Jhana while walking, standing, sitting and lying down, but I do not think there are anymore Suttas suggesting this and this Sutta has no parallel.
I think you have referenced the wrong sutta. I'm aware of the one I think you mean though. Analysis of the grammar indicates that it's not necessarily the Jhāna that is being referenced too whilst walking. If it were though then the sutta talks about walking around whilst in the 4th Jhāna. During the 4th Jhāna the body is so still that breathing ceases. The mind too is perfectly still. Does it make sense to say that someone who is so tranquil that their breathing stops can then walk around up and down hills on a hot day in India, much less have a totally still mind when talking to people they meet?

Sorry, just edited my post, it’s AN 3.63
Joe.c
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by Joe.c »

NAD wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 9:03 pm Was Buddha always in Jhana? If not then he would have had the five hindrances present, how can this be reconciled?
Good question. Jhana also means pure mind, no hindrances = jhana.

So, Buddha and arahant always in jhana. Heck even a non returner is always in jhana. At least 1st jhana.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by Ceisiwr »

Joe.c wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 9:55 pm
NAD wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 9:03 pm Was Buddha always in Jhana? If not then he would have had the five hindrances present, how can this be reconciled?
Good question. Jhana also means pure mind, no hindrances = jhana.

So, Buddha and arahant always in jhana. Heck even a non returner is always in jhana. At least 1st jhana.
“Then the Buddha entered the first absorption. Emerging from that, he entered the second absorption. Emerging from that, he successively entered into and emerged from the third absorption, the fourth absorption, the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness, and the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. Then he entered the cessation of perception and feeling.”

DN 16

If the Buddha was constantly in Jhana then he wouldn’t experience any physical pain, yet he did.
“Mendicants, I do not see a single thing that, when it’s not tamed, is so very harmful as the mind. A wild mind is very harmful.”

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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by Ceisiwr »

NAD wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 9:52 pm
Sorry, just edited my post, it’s AN 3.63
That’s the one I thought you meant :smile:
“Mendicants, I do not see a single thing that, when it’s not tamed, is so very harmful as the mind. A wild mind is very harmful.”

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Joe.c
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by Joe.c »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 9:32 pm Yes. New born babies don't have the hindrances yet, just the tendency for them later. They aren't always in Jhāna. Jhāna is the result of totally letting go, where the mind is completely still and absorbed into a meditation.
Problem is baby can’t even aware about anything yet. How can he check that he doesn’t have any hindrances or check the jhana factors are present in him?

Only one who has wisdom can do the checking.
During the 4th Jhāna the body is so still that breathing ceases. The mind too is perfectly still. Does it make sense to say that someone who is so tranquil that their breathing stops can then walk around up and down hills on a hot day in India, much less have a totally still mind when talking to people they meet?
Why not? a breathing has stopped, but one can still walk, eat, move, sit, etc. Clearly you don’t understand yet. The mind is so powerful to still all activities.

Of course not at hot place. When one meditate walking or sit, they will find a shaded place to meditate.
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by Joe.c »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 10:04 pm If the Buddha was constantly in Jhana then he wouldn’t experience any physical pain, yet he did.
Sorry to tell, look like you will never understand. I have said many times.

1st jhana is close to kama loka. One will feel the physical pain when one is close to kama loka. What Buddha will do typically just lay down and mindful and move the mind into higher jhana.

When you are at higher jhana, all pain will be gone or move to background.
BrokenBones
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by BrokenBones »

If said baby develops muscles & balance they can learn to walk... they have the ability to walk... they are a walker.
If the baby sits or lies down they are still a walker... they still possess the abilities associated with walking.
Only if the inclination and conditions arise to walk will the baby walk.
The Buddha did not know everything about everything all the time... only when he directed his mind did knowledge come to him.
Thoughts/thinking... vicara & vittaka are crucial here (not the directed & sustained variety) but the deliberate intention & recollection to enter jhana.

You could own a vast mansion with no mortgage to pay but you don't occupy every room at once... only the one you incline your mind to.
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by santa100 »

NAD wrote:Was Buddha always in Jhana? If not then he would have had the five hindrances present, how can this be reconciled?
There's no need to reconcile because the above is only valid based on the assumption that the five hindrances could only be suppressed if and only if one is in Jhana. But notice that the Jhanas, important as they are, don't guarantee that one's attained any of the Four Noble Fruits. Heck they don't even permanently remove the five hindrances, but could only temporarily suppress them. The Buddha was someone who's already attained the highest noble stage and made the breakthrough to Nibbana. So say even when He's not in any state of Jhanic absorption, the five hindrances would still be permanently removed.
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by Joe.c »

BrokenBones wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 11:02 pm If said baby develops muscles & balance they can learn to walk... they have the ability to walk... they are a walker.
If the baby sits or lies down they are still a walker... they still possess the abilities associated with walking.
Only if the inclination and conditions arise to walk will the baby walk.
The Buddha did not know everything about everything all the time... only when he directed his mind did knowledge come to him.
Thoughts/thinking... vicara & vittaka are crucial here (not the directed & sustained variety) but the deliberate intention & recollection to enter jhana.

You could own a vast mansion with no mortgage to pay but you don't occupy every room at once... only the one you incline your mind to.
Good analogy.

I like to use an analogy of graduated from university.

So an arahant or Buddha has graduated from university. Will they forget their study (wisdom) about how they graduated? Of course not, they have the wisdom to teach the step by step how. But they don't always carry the book with them all the time, only when they need, they use it.

But, this doesn't mean they are not in jhana/samadhi all the time or lost all their previous wisdom. It is only when they check they will know where their mind is. Otherwise just let the mind be still (aka calm).

But have anyone ask about if Buddha/arahant mind is not in jhana, where will their mind be? Is it with hindrances? Is it in kama loka (sensual pleasure realm)? If not, then where?

By answering this question, one will know that the Buddha's mind can't be possibly left the jhana world ever. Because there is no in between world of kama loka & rupa/arupa loka. It is either 1 or another.

Even for Nibbana, Buddha has said one needs jhana to enter nibbana. No jhana is equal to no Nibbana. 1st jhana will do to enter nibbana.

Note: Jhana here, I refer to Samma Samadhi part of N8FP. Not any other jhana from outsider.
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by Pulsar »

NAD wrote
There is a Sutta, AN 3.63 which suggests that the Buddha is in Jhana while walking, standing, sitting and lying down, but I do not think there are anymore Suttas suggesting this and this Sutta has no parallel.
Thanks for pointing it out. With or without parallels this sutta got it right, sort of, more right than a sutta that says Buddha had to sit down and enter first jhana or second jhana, after returning from alms round. Just think!
  • Have not all Arahants left behind the raft of 8 fold path?
Do they need to pick it up again? why? to enter jhana? Why would they want to do it. They have gone beyond the 6 sense bases.
Challenges arise when people make clinging contacts at the 6 sense bases. For one who has no clinging? Will contact matter? Jhana is a stabilized state of mind where Name and form of DO no more appear. Such minds are always at peace.
Arahants are always at peace. whether walking, standing, or lying down.
Regards :candle:
Joe.c
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by Joe.c »

Pulsar wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 1:32 am ...
Here we go again. 😂😅

Please ask what this statement mean?
Arahants are always at peace. whether walking, standing, or lying down.
Isn't this statement mean arahant is always in samadhi aka jhana? Lol
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