Arahant with Bad Manners

[Ceisiwr]

I don’t see why not, depending on the occasion. Why wouldn’t they?

Look like you don’t understand the power of Samma Ditthi. Buddha has completed the N8FP path, he has the wisdom.

Along the way of constructing the path, an arahant also perfecting morality, perfecting sense restraint, perfecting samadhi, and perfecting wisdom.

An arahant will have sati sampajanna to watch vitakka vicara right before it broke into speech.

So if you hear someone called themselves as an arahant, but they have emotion or swear a lot. I would say it is almost impossible one is an arahant.

You can swear without breaking morality, sense restraint or wisdom. Obviously you can't swear whilst in Jhāna, as you can't speak at all then. Saying "shit" is only unwholesome if there is an unwholesome intent behind it. Of course, that doesn't mean the Buddha had no social etiquette. I doubt he would start swearing when invited for a meal. Let's put it this way though, if he were instructing me one on one, say regarding foulness of the body, I don't see an issue if he said "shit" instead of "excrement". It wouldn't create a negative impression in my mind, and he wouldn't be acting contrary to his claims of Buddhahood by saying it. Perhaps though he wouldn't swear around you, since you seem to think it's inherently negative for some reason.

[Joe.c]

You can swear without breaking morality, sense restraint or wisdom.

Proof it. Try to maintain perfect morality in your daily life. Of course without Right view first, it is close to impossible.

[Ceisiwr]

You can swear without breaking morality, sense restraint or wisdom.

Proof it. Try to maintain perfect morality in your daily life. Of course without Right view first, it is close to impossible.

If someone uses "shit" when talking about the foulness of the body, they can do so without being motivated by ill-will or aversion. It's intent which matters, not the word. Also the social context too. You wouldn't go swearing in front of people who find it offensive.

[Joe.c]

If someone uses "shit" when talking about the foulness of the body, they can do so without being motivated by ill-will or aversion. It's intent which matters, not the word. Also the social context too. You wouldn't go swearing in front of people who find it offensive.

Those pali words are used such that any outsider can’t ever be offended by them. A Samma Sambuddha or an arahant will use words that are so gentle, even no one can be offended. The problem is when the words are being translated into english it is different story.

However a puthujjana is possible to use foul languages.

Also, why would Buddha taught foulness of the body to outsider? He would teach them getting right view first before teaching the sati/samadhi part. Just look at DN 10 or other graduated discourses.

[Ceisiwr]

If someone uses "shit" when talking about the foulness of the body, they can do so without being motivated by ill-will or aversion. It's intent which matters, not the word. Also the social context too. You wouldn't go swearing in front of people who find it offensive.

Those pali words are used such that any outsider can’t ever be offended by them.

If the Buddha said "shit" in front of me when discussing foulness of the body, I wouldn't be offended.

A Samma Sambuddha or an arahant will use words that are so gentle, even no one can be offended. The problem is when the words are being translated into english it is different story.

The Buddha called people foolish and stupid. People tend to get offended by that. At the end of the day the Buddha still had a personality. He still had a sense of humour. He still had preferences and he certainly disliked his fame. I don't see any reason why he wouldn't swear, assuming he had no issue with swearing before awakening. He was still an individual, with a residual name & form.

[Ceisiwr]

If someone uses "shit" when talking about the foulness of the body, they can do so without being motivated by ill-will or aversion. It's intent which matters, not the word. Also the social context too. You wouldn't go swearing in front of people who find it offensive.

Those pali words are used such that any outsider can’t ever be offended by them.

If the Buddha said "shit" in front of me when discussing foulness of the body, I wouldn't be offended.

A Samma Sambuddha or an arahant will use words that are so gentle, even no one can be offended. The problem is when the words are being translated into english it is different story.

The Buddha called people foolish and stupid. People tend to get offended by that. At the end of the day the Buddha still had a personality. He still had a sense of humour. He still had preferences and he certainly disliked his fame. I don't see any reason why he wouldn't swear, assuming he had no issue with swearing before awakening. He was still an individual, with a residual name & form. I mean, he even made mistakes too.

[Joe.c]

If the Buddha said "shit" in front of me when discussing foulness of the body, I wouldn't be offended.

Why would Buddha teach you foulness of the body? when he read your mind that you don’t even has a right view yet.

Wouldn’t he just waste his time and effort?

The Buddha called people foolish and stupid. People tend to get offended by that. At the end of the day the Buddha still had a personality. He still had a sense of humour. He still had preferences and he certainly disliked his fame. I don't see any reason why he wouldn't swear, assuming he had no issue with swearing before awakening. He was still an individual, with a residual name & form.

Yeah. Only foolish and stupid people get offended. Lol. Smart people who get called stupid/foolish, they will introspect and check inside. If they don’t find any fault, why would they care?

Or they go to the person who said the word to him and have a chat. Who know there is something, he didn’t know.

Like i said an arahant will have sati sampajjana to look at vitakka vicara right before it broke into speech. If they don’t have sati and wisdom, then their samadhi is micca samadhi.

[santa100]

When it comes to swearing, we could be pretty certain that that's something the Buddha'd never do. It doesn't even take a Buddha to not to say curse words. I know an old friend of mine, pretty sure he's no enlightened one, but never heard the guy using any swear word his whole life, that's number one. Number two, the Buddha didn't get the epithet "Teacher of gods and humans" for no reason. Say when someone walking outside in a very dark cold night, all alone and with no one else, the poor guy might say it out loud: "man, it's f...king cold out here". While there's no human around and within range to hear his word, he could bet his behind that there're tons of other non-human beings do. And the reason they wouldn't give a crap about that was because they know that guy was just a poor schmuck trying to find his way home. If he was a monk, he'd probably get some sort of admonition like the case of SN 9.14

[Sam Vara]

When it comes to swearing, we could be pretty certain that that's something the Buddha'd never do. It doesn't even take a Buddha to not to say curse words. I know an old friend of mine, pretty sure he's no enlightened one, but never heard the guy using any swear word his whole life, that's number one. Number two, the Buddha didn't get the epithet "Teacher of gods and humans" for no reason. Say when someone walking outside in a very dark cold night, all alone and with no one else, the poor guy might say it out loud: "man, it's f...king cold out here". While there's no human around and within range to hear his word, he could bet his behind that there're tons of other non-human beings do. And the reason they wouldn't give a crap about that was because they know that guy was just a poor schmuck trying to find his way home. If he was a monk, he'd probably get some sort of admonition like the case of SN 9.14

Would they give a cr*p about the word "cr*p"?

[Coëmgenu]

A lot of this discourse of "the Buddha would never swear" carries IMO the cultural influence of the sentiment of "sweet baby Jesus no crying he makes." The Buddha didn't have a sailor's tongue, but there's no reason why he wouldn't swear if the situation demanded it. If someone with good Pali frequents this thread, maybe they can tell us more about the registers the Buddha is believed to have spoken in at such-and-such a time. Barring that, we really don't know how graphic the Buddha's language could get when the situation demanded it. There is a well-known section of the Buddhavacana where the Buddha compares a woman's genitals to the open mouth of a cobra, a cobra that is presumably metaphorically waiting to bite your genitals off if you put them in its mouth. That's very strong language. It probably isn't "swearing," but it probably wouldn't be uttered in "polite company," such as in the presence of a mighty king's wife or even a respectable worldly townsman's presence.

[Pulsar]

Coemgenu wrote

There is a well-known section of the Buddhavacana where the Buddha compares a woman's genitals to the open mouth of a cobra, a cobra that is presumably metaphorically waiting to bite your genitals off if you put them in its mouth.

I am not bragging, but I have read each and every sutta in the Pali canon, and samyukta agama. As much as apps on translation mangles Buddha's words, none has mangled Buddha''s words to this extent.
You wrote

That's very strong language. It probably isn't "swearing," but it probably wouldn't be uttered in "polite company," such as in the presence of a mighty king's wife or even a respectable worldly townsman's presence.

In which kind of company would Buddha utter such words. Pl enlighten me.
Can you bring us the sutta number? Is it from the Pali canon or Samyukta agama? seriously I don't mind reading Chinese.
The company that Buddha kept so he can utter such words????? It is only your words, so I would not worry. Once you created a post to prove that Mulasarvastivadin was a late school, asked to prove, I never saw a worthy proof on that thread.
Regards

[Coëmgenu]

Coemgenu wrote

There is a well-known section of the Buddhavacana where the Buddha compares a woman's genitals to the open mouth of a cobra, a cobra that is presumably metaphorically waiting to bite your genitals off if you put them in its mouth.

I am not bragging, but I have read each and every sutta in the Pali canon, and samyukta agama. As much as apps on translation mangles Buddha's words, none has mangled Buddha''s words to this extent.

I have not mangled his words in the least. Please desist with this off-topic nonsense.

[Pulsar]

Coemgenu wrote

I have not mangled his words in the least. Please desist with this off-topic nonsense.

you made a serious claim. I only asked you to prove it by providing us with a sutta number?
Once a woman claimed that Buddha made her pregnant, we know what happened to that claim. Pl substantiate your claim. Moderators pl tell me "Is this off topic?"
Be well

[Coëmgenu]

Your nonsense about the Mūlasarvāstivādins definitely is off-topic. The comparison between the woman's genitals and the cobra's mouth is from the first training rule related to expulsion in the vinaya. The Buddha says that it would be better to put your penis into the mouth of a cobra than inside a woman's genitals, also it would be better to put it into a burning pit of charcoal.

[santa100]

Would they give a cr*p about the word "cr*p"?

Guess the only time in their lifetime when they say "Oh crap!" is the moment they realize their time in the heavenly world is up and they're about to join the company of those dirty-mouth humans