B. Sujato V&V contradicts himself multiple times, AN 5.26, AN 8.63, SN 46.3, SN 47.10, SN 54.13
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... tiple.html
There's an emoji for Sujato that describes his inconsistent translation of vitakka in first jhāna context
There's an emoji for Sujato that describes his inconsistent translation of vitakka in first jhāna context
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Re: There's an emoji for Sujato that describes his inconsistent translation of vitakka in first jhāna context
Is it this?There's an emoji for Sujato
Re: There's an emoji for Sujato that describes his inconsistent translation of vitakka in first jhāna context
Has it ever occurred to you yet that words with general meanings take on more specific meanings in different contexts? Ever paid much attention to this happening in your mother tongue? Yes, it happens in all languages, ancient and modern. If we fixed every source word with a single English translation (and not just the couple words you happen to be obsessed with), the result would be ridiculous sounding when the choices doesn't fit a given context. Literalism, simply put, is the position of beginners who are confused by a language they don't know very well yet. Translators who try to do this give it up when they become more fluent and skilled at their trade.frank k wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 11:55 am B. Sujato V&V contradicts himself multiple times, AN 5.26, AN 8.63, SN 46.3, SN 47.10, SN 54.13
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... tiple.html
Plus, try translating and publishing a few hundred thousand words of material over a period of a couple years. You'll discover inconsistencies building up over time. Some of them are the result of inattention, some of them because a translator's opinions can change as they translate material and see larger patterns and subtleties. It happens to every translator or writer engaged in a large project. The consistency editing is as much work as the initial translation. There's nothing nefarious about it beyond not taking the time to fix the older translations immediately.
BTW, what's it like to have Sujato living rent free in your head? It's got to be maddening after a while. I mean, that guy is so opinionated. I can only imagine the arguments! Maybe you should evict him and get your life back.
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Re: There's an emoji for Sujato that describes his inconsistent translation of vitakka in first jhāna context
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: There's an emoji for Sujato that describes his inconsistent translation of vitakka in first jhāna context
Thanks for this. It is very helpful to have input from someone who has put a great deal of time and effort into translation. Unfortunately, much too often on this Forum dictionary lookup is mistaken for translation.cdpatton wrote: ↑Thu May 26, 2022 7:25 pmIf we fixed every source word with a single English translation (and not just the couple words you happen to be obsessed with), the result would be ridiculous sounding when the choices doesn't fit a given context. Literalism, simply put, is the position of beginners who are confused by a language they don't know very well yet. Translators who try to do this give it up when they become more fluent and skilled at their trade.
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Re: There's an emoji for Sujato that describes his inconsistent translation of vitakka in first jhāna context
It's hard to see, but the emoji frank k was posting was a waffle.
Waffles are good, mmmmm
Re: There's an emoji for Sujato that describes his inconsistent translation of vitakka in first jhāna context
That's what I thought!
And besides, I think that translating a TV show series is one kind of translation where the good ones are those that have the right meaning although the wording and phrasing might end up being quite different. But if we are talking about translating deep teachings, now accuracy and words choice exactitude might play a big part.
For some sort of example, yesterday my daughter asked me if it was ok to say in english "how many years have you got?" and I said "No! That's how we speak. They ask how old is that person". The right translation takes on different words here but if it were part of a deep teaching mentioning years could play an important role in conveying a meaning.
Of course I know the ideal case is to not rely on translations and learn the language fully.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
Re: There's an emoji for Sujato that describes his inconsistent translation of vitakka in first jhāna context
Has it ever occurred to you that some words DO hold up their meaning consistently?cdpatton wrote: ↑Thu May 26, 2022 7:25 pmHas it ever occurred to you yet that words with general meanings take on more specific meanings in different contexts? Ever paid much attention to this happening in your mother tongue? ...frank k wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 11:55 am B. Sujato V&V contradicts himself multiple times, AN 5.26, AN 8.63, SN 46.3, SN 47.10, SN 54.13
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... tiple.html
I've done the research. Have you?
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/ ... index.html
That's every single occurrence of vitakka in the all the nikayas (excluding a few in KN).
Do you see one where vitakka is changing in different contexts?
Ever paid attention to your mother tongue? 'Yes' and 'No' tend to be pretty consistent do they not?
Turns out other fundamental words also hold up their meaning, especially when it relates to universal timeless phenomena.
In an oral tradition, you hear sounds in a COMMUNICABLE LANGUAGE.
You think VERBAL thoughts (vitakka) before they're expressed in a COMMUNICABLE LANGUAGE (vitakka = vacī-sankhāra).
Does that change in different contexts?
I've done enough studying and translating of my own to know it can be messy and uncertain in many cases.
Vitakka is not one of them.
Last edited by frank k on Fri May 27, 2022 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: There's an emoji for Sujato that describes his inconsistent translation of vitakka in first jhāna context
They're definitely not good when you corrupt the Dharma.
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Re: There's an emoji for Sujato that describes his inconsistent translation of vitakka in first jhāna context
Did you even bother to read the post carefully and examine vitakka in the context of those suttas?frank k wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 10:50 am...cdpatton wrote: ↑Thu May 26, 2022 7:25 pmHas it ever occurred to you yet that words with general meanings take on more specific meanings in different contexts? Ever paid much attention to this happening in your mother tongue? ...frank k wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 11:55 am B. Sujato V&V contradicts himself multiple times, AN 5.26, AN 8.63, SN 46.3, SN 47.10, SN 54.13
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... tiple.html
All of those have parallels in agama. I've looked at those parallels, and using the same meaning of vitakka as "verbal thought',
it works there too.
You think Sujato's waffling on 'vitakka' is justified?
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Re: There's an emoji for Sujato that describes his inconsistent translation of vitakka in first jhāna context
There is no way that cdpatton could read and find vitakka vicara in AN 5.26.
Can you cdpatton? I can't find a single agama parallel for AN 5,26 on sutta central. It lists a parallel but it is not in Samyukta agama. It is a number beginning with T only, without content.
According to a comment by VBB to this sutta, AN 5.26, I feel one sleepy compiler wrote this sutta.
Sutta lists 5 different ways of liberating oneself. According to the sutta, one can be liberated without any understanding of DO.
An excerpt
Being joyful, rapture springs up. When the mind is full of rapture, the body becomes tranquil. When the body is tranquil, one feels bliss. And when blissful, the mind becomes immersed in samādhi.
and connects joy, rapture, tranquility as resulting from meditating on an object? Leading to liberation? What kind of liberation is that?
Is this Buddha dhamma, or methods that existed before the Buddha?
Who would not waffle, translating suttas like this? OP deserves an award for selecting a phony sutta in order to accuse V. Sujato.
Regards
Next time hope OP comes up with a worthy sutta, a sutta that makes reading OP's selections, worthy of reader's time.
PS: OP asked me in the past not to interact with him. Since OP has blocked me he will not be able to read my comment??? only the others, can read it luckily.
If the first selection in the list is phony?? what will the others reveal? when I have the time??? for the benefit of others. Why bother with vitakka, vicara in a phony sutta? What is the point of a sutta in the Pali canon that does not teach Buddha Dhamma, but phony dhamma?
Can you cdpatton? I can't find a single agama parallel for AN 5,26 on sutta central. It lists a parallel but it is not in Samyukta agama. It is a number beginning with T only, without content.
According to a comment by VBB to this sutta, AN 5.26, I feel one sleepy compiler wrote this sutta.
Sutta lists 5 different ways of liberating oneself. According to the sutta, one can be liberated without any understanding of DO.
An excerpt
It is one of those quaint suttas that parrots words likeFurthermore, it may be that neither the Teacher nor … the mendicant teaches Dhamma … nor does the mendicant recite the teaching … or think about it.
But a meditation subject as a foundation of immersion is properly grasped,
attended, borne in mind, and comprehended with wisdom.
That mendicant feels inspired by the meaning and the teaching in that Dhamma, no matter how a meditation subject as a foundation of immersion is properly grasped, attended, borne in mind, and comprehended with wisdom. Feeling inspired, joy springs up. Being joyful, rapture springs up. When the mind is full of rapture, the body becomes tranquil. When the body is tranquil, one feels bliss. And when blissful, the mind becomes immersed in samādhi. This is the fifth opportunity for freedom.
Being joyful, rapture springs up. When the mind is full of rapture, the body becomes tranquil. When the body is tranquil, one feels bliss. And when blissful, the mind becomes immersed in samādhi.
and connects joy, rapture, tranquility as resulting from meditating on an object? Leading to liberation? What kind of liberation is that?
Is this Buddha dhamma, or methods that existed before the Buddha?
- Sutta implies one can get liberated by meditating on an object?
- Piltdown list.
Quite a contradiction we have here.Sandha sutta says only the foolish meditator meditates on an object.
Who would not waffle, translating suttas like this? OP deserves an award for selecting a phony sutta in order to accuse V. Sujato.
Regards
Next time hope OP comes up with a worthy sutta, a sutta that makes reading OP's selections, worthy of reader's time.
PS: OP asked me in the past not to interact with him. Since OP has blocked me he will not be able to read my comment??? only the others, can read it luckily.
If the first selection in the list is phony?? what will the others reveal? when I have the time??? for the benefit of others. Why bother with vitakka, vicara in a phony sutta? What is the point of a sutta in the Pali canon that does not teach Buddha Dhamma, but phony dhamma?
Re: There's an emoji for Sujato that describes his inconsistent translation of vitakka in first jhāna context
Still waiting for your response Charles.
If you're not going to explain your interpretation and translation of vitakka, and vicāra in the pāḷi texts and the āgamas, then at the very least, you owe the courtesy of a response to indicate whether you're unsure, still researching, etc.
Agama parallels exist for all of those suttas I mentioned, and there are a lot more sutta references where Sujato waffles inexcplicably on vitakka.
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Re: There's an emoji for Sujato that describes his inconsistent translation of vitakka in first jhāna context
Greetings,
to be honest i did not (yet) study your research thouroughly, frank k, but hearing that you could look that up in the agamas is interesting.
Anyhow, just wanted to express something from the practical viewpoint, regarding that vitakka matter, does it matter that much ?!
It is solely the first Jhāna... the fourth is the useful one, and regarding that there should be little doubt...breath is a thorn, everything said.
Until then, we have to keep going!
Best wishes
to be honest i did not (yet) study your research thouroughly, frank k, but hearing that you could look that up in the agamas is interesting.
Anyhow, just wanted to express something from the practical viewpoint, regarding that vitakka matter, does it matter that much ?!
It is solely the first Jhāna... the fourth is the useful one, and regarding that there should be little doubt...breath is a thorn, everything said.
Until then, we have to keep going!
Best wishes
Abroisa, alchemical gold, the true philosopher's stone!
Re: There's an emoji for Sujato that describes his inconsistent translation of vitakka in first jhāna context
Not always. And especially not when the late Sidney Morgenbesser was around.
Linguistic philosopher J. L. Austin was once delivering a lecture at Oxford, with a young Morgenbesser sitting on the back row.
"There are many languages in which a double negative makes a positive," explained Austin, "but there's no known language in which a double positive makes a negative."
Instantly, from the back of the room, a voice piped up, "Yeah, yeah."
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/arts ... rgenbesser
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
Re: There's an emoji for Sujato that describes his inconsistent translation of vitakka in first jhāna context
Mumfie wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 1:10 pmNot always. And especially not when the late Sidney Morgenbesser was around.
Linguistic philosopher J. L. Austin was once delivering a lecture at Oxford, with a young Morgenbesser sitting on the back row.
"There are many languages in which a double negative makes a positive," explained Austin, "but there's no known language in which a double positive makes a negative."
Instantly, from the back of the room, a voice piped up, "Yeah, yeah."
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/arts ... rgenbesser