There's an emoji for Sujato that describes his inconsistent translation of vitakka in first jhāna context

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frank k
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There's an emoji for Sujato that describes his inconsistent translation of vitakka in first jhāna context

Post by frank k »

🧇B. Sujato V&V contradicts himself multiple times, AN 5.26, AN 8.63, SN 46.3, SN 47.10, SN 54.13
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... tiple.html
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cdpatton
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Re: There's an emoji for Sujato that describes his inconsistent translation of vitakka in first jhāna context

Post by cdpatton »

frank k wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 11:55 am 🧇B. Sujato V&V contradicts himself multiple times, AN 5.26, AN 8.63, SN 46.3, SN 47.10, SN 54.13
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... tiple.html
Has it ever occurred to you yet that words with general meanings take on more specific meanings in different contexts? Ever paid much attention to this happening in your mother tongue? Yes, it happens in all languages, ancient and modern. If we fixed every source word with a single English translation (and not just the couple words you happen to be obsessed with), the result would be ridiculous sounding when the choices doesn't fit a given context. Literalism, simply put, is the position of beginners who are confused by a language they don't know very well yet. Translators who try to do this give it up when they become more fluent and skilled at their trade.

Plus, try translating and publishing a few hundred thousand words of material over a period of a couple years. You'll discover inconsistencies building up over time. Some of them are the result of inattention, some of them because a translator's opinions can change as they translate material and see larger patterns and subtleties. It happens to every translator or writer engaged in a large project. The consistency editing is as much work as the initial translation. There's nothing nefarious about it beyond not taking the time to fix the older translations immediately.

BTW, what's it like to have Sujato living rent free in your head? It's got to be maddening after a while. I mean, that guy is so opinionated. I can only imagine the arguments! Maybe you should evict him and get your life back.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: There's an emoji for Sujato that describes his inconsistent translation of vitakka in first jhāna context

Post by Ceisiwr »

cdpatton wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 7:25 pm
Well said.
“Mendicants, I do not see a single thing that, when it’s not tamed, is so very harmful as the mind. A wild mind is very harmful.”

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Re: There's an emoji for Sujato that describes his inconsistent translation of vitakka in first jhāna context

Post by mikenz66 »

cdpatton wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 7:25 pmIf we fixed every source word with a single English translation (and not just the couple words you happen to be obsessed with), the result would be ridiculous sounding when the choices doesn't fit a given context. Literalism, simply put, is the position of beginners who are confused by a language they don't know very well yet. Translators who try to do this give it up when they become more fluent and skilled at their trade.
Thanks for this. It is very helpful to have input from someone who has put a great deal of time and effort into translation. Unfortunately, much too often on this Forum dictionary lookup is mistaken for translation.

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Re: There's an emoji for Sujato that describes his inconsistent translation of vitakka in first jhāna context

Post by DNS »

Eko Care wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 3:09 pm
There's an emoji for Sujato
Is it this? :shrug:
It's hard to see, but the emoji frank k was posting was a waffle.

Image

Waffles are good, mmmmm
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mjaviem
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Re: There's an emoji for Sujato that describes his inconsistent translation of vitakka in first jhāna context

Post by mjaviem »

cdpatton wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 7:25 pm ... words with general meanings take on more specific meanings in different contexts...
That's what I thought!

And besides, I think that translating a TV show series is one kind of translation where the good ones are those that have the right meaning although the wording and phrasing might end up being quite different. But if we are talking about translating deep teachings, now accuracy and words choice exactitude might play a big part.

For some sort of example, yesterday my daughter asked me if it was ok to say in english "how many years have you got?" and I said "No! That's how we speak. They ask how old is that person". The right translation takes on different words here but if it were part of a deep teaching mentioning years could play an important role in conveying a meaning.

Of course I know the ideal case is to not rely on translations and learn the language fully.
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Re: There's an emoji for Sujato that describes his inconsistent translation of vitakka in first jhāna context

Post by frank k »

cdpatton wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 7:25 pm
frank k wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 11:55 am 🧇B. Sujato V&V contradicts himself multiple times, AN 5.26, AN 8.63, SN 46.3, SN 47.10, SN 54.13
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... tiple.html
Has it ever occurred to you yet that words with general meanings take on more specific meanings in different contexts? Ever paid much attention to this happening in your mother tongue? ...
Has it ever occurred to you that some words DO hold up their meaning consistently?
I've done the research. Have you?
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/ ... index.html
That's every single occurrence of vitakka in the all the nikayas (excluding a few in KN).

Do you see one where vitakka is changing in different contexts?


Ever paid attention to your mother tongue? 'Yes' and 'No' tend to be pretty consistent do they not?
Turns out other fundamental words also hold up their meaning, especially when it relates to universal timeless phenomena.
In an oral tradition, you hear sounds in a COMMUNICABLE LANGUAGE.
You think VERBAL thoughts (vitakka) before they're expressed in a COMMUNICABLE LANGUAGE (vitakka = vacī-sankhāra).
Does that change in different contexts?


I've done enough studying and translating of my own to know it can be messy and uncertain in many cases.
Vitakka is not one of them.
Last edited by frank k on Fri May 27, 2022 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: There's an emoji for Sujato that describes his inconsistent translation of vitakka in first jhāna context

Post by frank k »

DNS wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 9:25 pm ...
Waffles are good, mmmmm
They're definitely not good when you corrupt the Dharma.
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Re: There's an emoji for Sujato that describes his inconsistent translation of vitakka in first jhāna context

Post by frank k »

frank k wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 10:50 am
cdpatton wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 7:25 pm
frank k wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 11:55 am 🧇B. Sujato V&V contradicts himself multiple times, AN 5.26, AN 8.63, SN 46.3, SN 47.10, SN 54.13
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... tiple.html
Has it ever occurred to you yet that words with general meanings take on more specific meanings in different contexts? Ever paid much attention to this happening in your mother tongue? ...
...
Did you even bother to read the post carefully and examine vitakka in the context of those suttas?
All of those have parallels in agama. I've looked at those parallels, and using the same meaning of vitakka as "verbal thought',
it works there too.
You think Sujato's waffling on 'vitakka' is justified?
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Re: There's an emoji for Sujato that describes his inconsistent translation of vitakka in first jhāna context

Post by Pulsar »

There is no way that cdpatton could read and find vitakka vicara in AN 5.26.
Can you cdpatton? I can't find a single agama parallel for AN 5,26 on sutta central. It lists a parallel but it is not in Samyukta agama. It is a number beginning with T only, without content.

According to a comment by VBB to this sutta, AN 5.26, I feel one sleepy compiler wrote this sutta.
Sutta lists 5 different ways of liberating oneself. According to the sutta, one can be liberated without any understanding of DO.
An excerpt
Furthermore, it may be that neither the Teacher nor … the mendicant teaches Dhamma … nor does the mendicant recite the teaching … or think about it.
But a meditation subject as a foundation of immersion is properly grasped,
attended, borne in mind, and comprehended with wisdom.
That mendicant feels inspired by the meaning and the teaching in that Dhamma, no matter how a meditation subject as a foundation of immersion is properly grasped, attended, borne in mind, and comprehended with wisdom. Feeling inspired, joy springs up. Being joyful, rapture springs up. When the mind is full of rapture, the body becomes tranquil. When the body is tranquil, one feels bliss. And when blissful, the mind becomes immersed in samādhi. This is the fifth opportunity for freedom.
It is one of those quaint suttas that parrots words like
Being joyful, rapture springs up. When the mind is full of rapture, the body becomes tranquil. When the body is tranquil, one feels bliss. And when blissful, the mind becomes immersed in samādhi.
and connects joy, rapture, tranquility as resulting from meditating on an object? Leading to liberation? What kind of liberation is that?
Is this Buddha dhamma, or methods that existed before the Buddha?
  • Sutta implies one can get liberated by meditating on an object?
Is this even possible? Another sutta to add to the
  • Piltdown list.
Sandha sutta says only the foolish meditator meditates on an object.
Quite a contradiction we have here.
Who would not waffle, translating suttas like this? OP deserves an award for selecting a phony sutta in order to accuse V. Sujato.
Regards :candle:
Next time hope OP comes up with a worthy sutta, a sutta that makes reading OP's selections, worthy of reader's time.
PS: OP asked me in the past not to interact with him. Since OP has blocked me he will not be able to read my comment??? only the others, can read it luckily.
If the first selection in the list is phony?? what will the others reveal? when I have the time??? for the benefit of others. Why bother with vitakka, vicara in a phony sutta? What is the point of a sutta in the Pali canon that does not teach Buddha Dhamma, but phony dhamma?
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Re: There's an emoji for Sujato that describes his inconsistent translation of vitakka in first jhāna context

Post by frank k »

cdpatton wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 7:25 pm ...
Still waiting for your response Charles.
If you're not going to explain your interpretation and translation of vitakka, and vicāra in the pāḷi texts and the āgamas, then at the very least, you owe the courtesy of a response to indicate whether you're unsure, still researching, etc.
Agama parallels exist for all of those suttas I mentioned, and there are a lot more sutta references where Sujato waffles inexcplicably on vitakka.
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