Question about "luminous mind" in Thai Forest Buddhism

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
xabir
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 8:59 am

Re: Question about "luminous mind" in Thai Forest Buddhism

Post by xabir »

auto wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 6:48 pm I become aware of my self certainly after being hopeless, in shame etc. Meditating longer time, there can appear memories of some past incidents or potential encounters.. what then incite shame in me and i come aware of myself. I wouldn't call that reifying.
This is an act of appropriating. The first noble truth -- appropriated aggregates (upādānakkhandha - the aggregates that have been taken or appropriated to be I, me, and mine) is suffering.

Otherwise, thoughts, emotions, feelings hopelessness and shapes, are just like sights, sounds, etc, are simply another self-less, impermanent flickering and unsatisfactory dhamma (phenomena) that arise and cease according to conditions with no I, knower, doer, thinker, agent, nor owner. When seen this is having insight into the three dhamma seals. This is also the cause for liberation.
xabir
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 8:59 am

Re: Question about "luminous mind" in Thai Forest Buddhism

Post by xabir »

auto wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 7:17 pm knower doesn't exist the way objects exists.., you are worse than annihilationist, you don't even acknowledge the seer.
I have had direct realization of the so called 'I AM' or 'Witness' or 'Poo Roo' (The One Who Knows - Thai forest term) in an earlier phase of my realization.

Now my realization has progressed into nondual, anatta and emptiness. I no longer reify a truly existing, unchanging and separate Witness apart from phenomena.

It has nothing to do with denying the knowingness, the luminosity of mind/manifestation, etc.

Like expressed here:


2007:

(3:55 PM) Thusness: it is not to deny the existence of the luminosity
(3:55 PM) Thusness: the knowingness
(3:55 PM) Thusness: but rather to have the correct view of what consciousness is.
(3:56 PM) Thusness: like non-dual
(3:56 PM) Thusness: i said there is no witness apart from the manifestation, the witness is really the manifestation
(3:56 PM) Thusness: this is the first part
(3:56 PM) Thusness: since the witness is the manifestation, how is it so?
(3:57 PM) Thusness: how is the one is really the many?
(3:57 PM) AEN: conditions?
(3:57 PM) Thusness: saying that the one is the many is already wrong.
(3:57 PM) Thusness: this is using conventional way of expression.
(3:57 PM) Thusness: for in reality, there is no such thing of the 'one'
(3:57 PM) Thusness: and the many
(3:58 PM) Thusness: there is only arising and ceasing due to emptiness nature
(3:58 PM) Thusness: and the arising and ceasing itself is the clarity.
(3:58 PM) Thusness: there is no clarity apart from the phenomena
(4:00 PM) Thusness: if we experience non-dual like ken wilber and talk about the atman.
(4:00 PM) Thusness: though the experience is true, the understanding is wrong.
(4:00 PM) Thusness: this is similar to "I AM".
(4:00 PM) Thusness: except that it is higher form of experience.
(4:00 PM) Thusness: it is non-dual.

- http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2019/ ... n-non.html
auto
Posts: 4582
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Question about "luminous mind" in Thai Forest Buddhism

Post by auto »

xabir wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 4:42 pm
auto wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 6:48 pm I become aware of my self certainly after being hopeless, in shame etc. Meditating longer time, there can appear memories of some past incidents or potential encounters.. what then incite shame in me and i come aware of myself. I wouldn't call that reifying.
This is an act of appropriating. The first noble truth -- appropriated aggregates (upādānakkhandha - the aggregates that have been taken or appropriated to be I, me, and mine) is suffering.

Otherwise, thoughts, emotions, feelings hopelessness and shapes, are just like sights, sounds, etc, are simply another self-less, impermanent flickering and unsatisfactory dhamma (phenomena) that arise and cease according to conditions with no I, knower, doer, thinker, agent, nor owner. When seen this is having insight into the three dhamma seals. This is also the cause for liberation.
shame is a good mental factor, for to avoid making mistake in the future. I agree shame is not self.
auto
Posts: 4582
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Question about "luminous mind" in Thai Forest Buddhism

Post by auto »

xabir wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 4:46 pm
auto wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 7:17 pm knower doesn't exist the way objects exists.., you are worse than annihilationist, you don't even acknowledge the seer.
I have had direct realization of the so called 'I AM' or 'Witness' or 'Poo Roo' (The One Who Knows - Thai forest term) in an earlier phase of my realization.

Now my realization has progressed into nondual, anatta and emptiness. I no longer reify a truly existing, unchanging and separate Witness apart from phenomena.

It has nothing to do with denying the knowingness, the luminosity of mind/manifestation, etc.
..
Ok.. the manifest doing the witness part, there is no witness. Knowing things without questioning what is known, since if something happens it is simultaneously known. There is no separate agent doing the knowing.

I guess that has variations too just like sense of self, people understand it differently.
The reason i got into it, were lucid dreams, i wanted to have same thing going on on waking state. So i recalled what is to be aware during the dream, and just forced my self to be more aware to attain the lucidity. There where another issue, the breath, which interrupts awareness. Other times there are heartbeats etc.
I don't know exactly when i got to start mentally go for the permanent aspect, its not there, it is recalled and then tried make it happen, which more or less translate to concentration of making myself more clear or lucid.

all in all my average IQ is around 90. So there's that.
xabir
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 8:59 am

Re: Question about "luminous mind" in Thai Forest Buddhism

Post by xabir »

auto wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 7:32 pm
xabir wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 4:46 pm
auto wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 7:17 pm knower doesn't exist the way objects exists.., you are worse than annihilationist, you don't even acknowledge the seer.
I have had direct realization of the so called 'I AM' or 'Witness' or 'Poo Roo' (The One Who Knows - Thai forest term) in an earlier phase of my realization.

Now my realization has progressed into nondual, anatta and emptiness. I no longer reify a truly existing, unchanging and separate Witness apart from phenomena.

It has nothing to do with denying the knowingness, the luminosity of mind/manifestation, etc.
..
Ok.. the manifest doing the witness part, there is no witness. Knowing things without questioning what is known, since if something happens it is simultaneously known. There is no separate agent doing the knowing.

I guess that has variations too just like sense of self, people understand it differently.
The reason i got into it, were lucid dreams, i wanted to have same thing going on on waking state. So i recalled what is to be aware during the dream, and just forced my self to be more aware to attain the lucidity. There where another issue, the breath, which interrupts awareness. Other times there are heartbeats etc.
I don't know exactly when i got to start mentally go for the permanent aspect, its not there, it is recalled and then tried make it happen, which more or less translate to concentration of making myself more clear or lucid.

all in all my average IQ is around 90. So there's that.
It is not good to train lucidity in sleep while still not overcoming the illusion of self.

It can cause unpleasant experiences like insomnia due to clinging to a background witnessing.

This is different from nondual anatta experience in sleep
auto
Posts: 4582
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Question about "luminous mind" in Thai Forest Buddhism

Post by auto »

xabir wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 12:31 am It is not good to train lucidity in sleep while still not overcoming the illusion of self.

It can cause unpleasant experiences like insomnia due to clinging to a background witnessing.

This is different from nondual anatta experience in sleep
I don't train lucidity in sleep. I said, i mimic it in waking state and only in the beginning, before the attainment of vacuum state.
Sorry but i don't know what you talk about background witnessing, you have different definitions and grounds of approach. The background awareness directly or not, more or less led me to the attainment of vacuum state where i get to know the background awareness by being one.

From the Thusness I am state. There is no evidence in descriptions of pre-attainments necessary what would lead to the vacuum state. More so vacuum state requires formal practice, actual doing. So i presume the call is based on similar terms used, not based on having same experience.

The vacuum state is attained based on presence, no frontal focusing. There is only the knowing part focused on and at the ending of the concentration there will be aftereffect which has subtle energies(after cultivating it long enough) emerging. Whereas the actual attainment has bigger loop, it will have the subtle energy arise later and functions of the breath are involved.

Thereon what you call no-mind is on different grounds, it has no subtle energies, hence why there is also no sense of self. Therefore you calling self illusion is uncalled, just a wild guess based on temporal absence of subtle.
xabir
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 8:59 am

Re: Question about "luminous mind" in Thai Forest Buddhism

Post by xabir »

auto wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 2:39 pm
xabir wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 12:31 am It is not good to train lucidity in sleep while still not overcoming the illusion of self.

It can cause unpleasant experiences like insomnia due to clinging to a background witnessing.

This is different from nondual anatta experience in sleep
I don't train lucidity in sleep. I said, i mimic it in waking state and only in the beginning, before the attainment of vacuum state.
Sorry but i don't know what you talk about background witnessing, you have different definitions and grounds of approach. The background awareness directly or not, more or less led me to the attainment of vacuum state where i get to know the background awareness by being one.

From the Thusness I am state. There is no evidence in descriptions of pre-attainments necessary what would lead to the vacuum state. More so vacuum state requires formal practice, actual doing. So i presume the call is based on similar terms used, not based on having same experience.

The vacuum state is attained based on presence, no frontal focusing. There is only the knowing part focused on and at the ending of the concentration there will be aftereffect which has subtle energies(after cultivating it long enough) emerging. Whereas the actual attainment has bigger loop, it will have the subtle energy arise later and functions of the breath are involved.

Thereon what you call no-mind is on different grounds, it has no subtle energies, hence why there is also no sense of self. Therefore you calling self illusion is uncalled, just a wild guess based on temporal absence of subtle.
What you are describing is just Nirvikalpa Samadhi. It is the I AM.

From the AtR guide:



Soh Wei Yu
Admin
David Brown
What you are describing is just nirvikalpa samadhi in the I AM. It is not particularly special and is not unknown to us in AtR. John Tan, I and many others have experienced tremendously blissful samadhi absorption in Self. As I wrote recently, John Tan sat for hours each time in nirvikalpa samadhi with his Ch'an master in Thailand during his I AM stage. He could sit all day and actually almost became a monk and renunciant like Ramana Maharshi to focus entirely his time in absorption in the Self without the distractions of other sensory phenomena back when he was 17 but was stopped by his family.
Ramana Maharshi said,
"Abiding permanently in any of these samadhis, either Savikalpa or Nirvikalpa, is Sahaja. What is body-consciousness? It is the insentient body plus consciousness. Both these must lie in another consciousness which is absolute and unaffected, and ever-abiding, with or without the body-consciousness. What does it the matter whether the body-consciousness is lost or retained, provided one is holding on to that Pure Consciousness? Total absence of body-consciousness has the advantage of making the Samadhi more intense, although it makes no difference in the knowledge of the Supreme. (Ramana Maharshi, GR, 88.) "
Here he is saying the type of nirvikalpa samadhi where all senses are shut and one is merely absorbed in Self simply makes the samadhi or absorption in Self more intense, but it makes no difference to Self-Knowledge.
I will paste more excerpts in the following posts.


Soh Wei Yu
Admin
And yes I have experienced total cessation [of sensory and mental phenomena] and pure formless nondual clear light in deep sleep. It can also be intensely blissful, just the bliss of pure presence. I actually wrote some of those experiences in the sleep chapter towards the end of the AtR Guide.


Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Sim Pern Chong (who was at the I AM phase when he first encountered John Tan back in 2004 and was the first to break through to anatta and emptiness back in 2006 to 2008) wrote more than ten years ago:
http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../a-compilation-of...
realization: Oh yes Simpo, can I just ask how you realised the I AM years ago?
Simpo: There are actually 2 significant events:
1. In the 1980s when i was a teenager, i sat down to meditate for the first time. I experienced great bliss. In this meditation, i experienced 'no ultimate right or wrong' aka non-judgemental and is soaked in a vast ocean of bliss for a few days. Haha... i thought i was enlightened. On hindsight now, i know that i was not. That is why now when people write about non-dual to meant 'no right/wrong' I know which stage they are at.
2. In the 1990s, i join a meditation class that held sessions every Sunday at a Buddhist temple. I was learning one-point meditation. One afternoon when i was meditating at home, all the sensory impressions stopped including thoughts. I was in a state of 'No-thoughts'. One may think that when there are no thoughts, one must be unconscious. No there is no unconsciousness. Instead what was being experienced was pure Presence/awareness. However due to not understanding the nature of consciousness and reality, this awareness was experienced as an Eternal Witness/Observer. This is the pure experience of I AM presence.
...
In my case, the initial experience happened during a meditation which led me to the misassumption of 'I AM'. The experience is pure, but the latter interpretation of it was wrong.
In 'No-I' experience, one simply realised that there is no self in any experience even when consciousness is rolling own. There can be thinking, but there is no thinker.
On the other hand, in complete consciousness blank-out, yet awareness persists, there is not a single thought or any form of mental formation. Basically, there is no thinking, no mental image or any form of consciousness that we normally have. It will be distinctive because it is this experience that will allow one to see for the first time the difference between mental-mixed consciousness and pure presence.
Complete mental formation shut down and yet awareness still exist, it is not the same as sleep.
Personally, I don't see a point in maintaining witnessing even into sleep. It is really a desire to have that expereince of Presence.
...
I think Eckhart Tolle may have been suffering alot and suddenly he 'let go' of trying to work out his problems. This results in a dissociation from thoughts which give rise to the experience of Presence.
To me, 'I AM' is an experience of Presence, it is just that only one aspect of Presence is experienced which is the 'all-pervading' aspect. The non-dual and emptiness aspect are not experienced.. Because non-dual is not realised (at I AM stage), a person may still use effort in an attempt to 'enter' the Presence. This is because, at the I AM stage, there is an erroneous concept that there is a relative world make up of thoughts AND there is an 'absolute source' that is watching it. The I AM stage person will make attempts to 'dissociated from the relative world' in order to enter the 'absolute source'.
However, at Non-dual (& further..) stage understanding, one have understood that the division into a relative world and an absolute source has NEVER occcured and cannot be... Thus no attempt/effort is truly required.

Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Edmond Cigale, who realised anatta after I conversed with him back in DhO and those conversations somehow triggered his further investigation and breakthrough into nondual and anatta back in 2011, wrote this: [link redacted]
Where he compared the different types of samadhi he has gone through. Please don't share this file outside as it is going to be published into a book but here is an excerpt.
Back in his I AM phase he was able to enter kevala nirvikalpa samadhi at will,
" this context, Sri Ramana Maharshi used to say: "That which is not present in deep dreamless sleep is not real.”(quoted in Wilber 1998). Well, I have faced such notions withslight apprehension. How can emotions and thoughts (mine or those of others) be unreal, if they obviously exist? Yes, they are not absolutely real, as far as the Causal Self is concerned, but they exist nonetheless. I tried to compensate the inner disharmonyby focusing on impersonal aspect of the “I am” presence, trying to realize and hold on to “That which is only Real" during my wake consciousness. I have failed to achieve that.This tendency, however,eventually yieldedfree flow and easy entry into the Causalstate samādhi at will, but that was all. There was no way (for me) to handle the relative sensory input with mere Awareness of the naked Truth by entering samādhi at will.There was always this duality present: Me or the Absolute Reality on one hand, and the world drama of sensory input, on the other; almost unperceivable subtle tension and clear disharmony were always present.Obviously, my Causal realization was not perfected yet (and the nondual was not known, yet)."
APP.BOX.COM
Box

Soh Wei Yu
Admin
From Edmond's text:
Image
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
This state of Nirvikalpa Samadhi is also described even by Theravada monks like Ajahn Brahmavamso:
“When the Body Disappears. [text snipped, posted in AtR guide elsewhere]
xabir
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 8:59 am

Re: Question about "luminous mind" in Thai Forest Buddhism

Post by xabir »

xabir wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 7:32 pm This state of Nirvikalpa Samadhi is also described even by Theravada monks like Ajahn Brahmavamso:
“When the Body Disappears. [text snipped, posted in AtR guide elsewhere]
“When the Body Disappears.

Remember "con men," "con women" as well. These con men can sell you anything! There's one living in your mind right now, and you believe every word he says! His name is Thinking. When you let go of that inner talk and get silent, you get happy. Then when you let go of the movement of the mind and stay with the breath, you experience even more delight. Then when you let go of the body ,all these five senses disappear and you're really blissing out. This is original Buddhism. Sight, sound, smell, taste, and touch completely vanish. This is like being in a sensory deprivation chamber but much better. But it's not just silence, you just don't hear anything. It's not just blackness, you just don't see anything. It's not just a feeling of comfort in the body, there is no body at all.

When the body disappears that really starts to feel great. You know of all those people who have out of the body experiences? When the body dies, every person has that experience, they float out of the body. And one of the things they always say is it's so peaceful, so beautiful, so blissful. It's the same in meditation when the body disappears, it's so peaceful, so beautiful, so blissful when you are free from this body. What's left? Here there's no sight, sound, smell, taste, touch. This is what the Buddha called the mind in deep meditation. When the body disappears what is left is the mind.

I gave a simile to a monk the other night. Imagine an Emperor who is wearing a long pair of trousers and a big tunic. He's got shoes on his feet, a scarf around the bottom half of his head and a hat on the top half of his head. You can't see him at all because he's completely covered in five garments. It's the same with the mind. It's completely covered with sight, sound, smell, taste and touch. So people don't know it. They just know the garments. When they see the Emperor, they just see the robes and the garments. They don't know who lives inside them. And so it is no wonder they're confused about what is life, what is mind, who is this inside of here, where did I come from? Why? What am I supposed to be doing with this life? When the five senses disappear, it's like unclothing the Emperor and seeing what is actually in here, what's actually running the show, who's listening to these words, who's seeing, who's feeling life, who this is. When the five senses disappear, you're coming close to the answer to those questions.

What you're seeing in such deep meditation is that which we call "mind," (in Pali it's called Citta). The Buddha used this beautiful simile. When there is a full moon on a cloudy night, even though it's a full moon, you can hardly see it. Sometimes when the clouds are thin, you can see this hazy shape shining though. You know there is something there. This is like the meditation just before you've entered into these profound states. You know there is something there, but you can't quite make it out. There's still some "clothes" left. You're still thinking and doing, feeling the body or hearing sounds. But there does come a time, and this is the Buddha's simile, when the moon is released from the clouds and there in the clear night sky you can see the beautiful full disc of the moon shining brilliantly, and you know that's the moon. The moon is there; the moon is real, and it's not just some sort of side effect of the clouds. This is what happens in meditation when you see the mind. You see clearly that the mind is not some side effect of the brain. You see the mind, and you know the mind. The Buddha said that the mind released is beautiful, is brilliant, is radiant. So not only are these blissful experiences, they're meaningful experiences as well.

How many people may have heard about rebirth but still don't really believe it? How can rebirth happen? Certainly the body doesn't get reborn. That's why when people ask me where do you go when you die, "one of two places" I say "Fremantle or Karrakatta" that's where the body goes! [3] But is that where the mind goes? Sometimes people are so stupid in this world, they think the body is all there is, that there is no mind. So when you get cremated or buried that's it, that's done with, all has ended. The only way you can argue with this view is by developing the meditation that the Buddha achieved under the Bodhi tree. Then you can see the mind for yourself in clear awareness - not in some hypnotic trance, not in dullness - but in the clear awareness. This is knowing the mind


Knowing the Mind.

When you know that mind, when you see it for yourself, one of the results will be an insight that the mind is independent of this body. Independence means that when this body breaks up and dies, when it's cremated or when it's buried, or however it's destroyed after death, it will not affect the mind. You know this because you see the nature of the mind. That mind which you see will transcend bodily death. The first thing which you will see for yourself, the insight which is as clear as the nose on your face, is that there is something more to life than this physical body that we take to be me. Secondly you can recognise that that mind, essentially, is no different than that process of consciousness which is in all beings. Whether it's human beings or animals or even insects, of any gender, age or race, you see that that which is in common to all life is this mind, this consciousness, the source of doing.

Once you see that, you have much more respect for your fellow beings. Not just respect for your own race, your own tribe or your own religion, not just for human beings, but for all beings. It's a wonderfully high-minded idea. "May all beings be happy and well and may we respect all nations, all peoples, even all beings." However this is how you achieve that! You truly get compassion only when we see that others are fundamentally just as ourselves. If you think that a cow is completely different from you, that cows don't think like human beings, then it's easy to eat one. But can you eat your grandmother? She's too much like you. Can you eat an ant? Maybe you'd kill an ant because you think that ants aren't like you. But if you look carefully at ants, they are no different. In a forest monastery living out in the bush, close to nature, one of the things you become so convinced of is that animals have emotions and , especially, feel pain. You begin to recognise the personality of the animals, of the Kookaburras,(Australian bird) of the mice, the ants, and the spiders. Each one of those spiders has a mind just like you have. Once you see that you can understand the Buddha's compassion for all beings. You can also understand how rebirth can occur between all species - not just human beings to human beings, but animals to humans, humans to animals. You can understand also how the mind is the source of all this.”

- Ajahn Brahmavamso, https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... clnk&gl=sg

(Do note however that Ajahn Brahmavamso also pointed out the anatta realization as a distinct phase of realization:)

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2021/ ... avada.html


Soh Wei Yu
Ajahn brahmavamso on anatta insight:
Excerpt from
https://www.dhammatalks.net/.../Ajahn_Brahm_BAHIYA_S...
The Final Part of Bāhiya's Teaching
"Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: in the seen will be merely what is seen, ... in the cognized will merely be what is cognized. Practising in this way, Bāhiya, you will not be 'because of that'. When you are not 'because of that', you will not be 'in that'. And when you are not 'in that', you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering."
What does it mean "you will not be 'because of that'"? The Pāli is na tena. Tena is the instrumental of the word for 'that'. Na is the negative. It means, literally, "not because of that, not through that, not by that". It means in essence, you will not assume that there is a self, a soul, a me; because of, through, or by; the seen or the heard or the sensed or the cognized. The Buddha is saying that once you have penetrated the truth of sensory experience, by suppressing the Hindrances through Jhāna, you will see that there is no 'doer', nor a 'knower', behind sensory experience. No longer will you be able to use sensory experience as evidence for a self. Descartes' famous "I am because I think" is refuted. You will not be because of thinking, nor because of seeing, hearing or sensing. In the Buddha's words, "You will not be because of that (any sensory experience)".
When the sensory processes are discarded as tenable evidence for a self, a soul or a me, then you are no longer located in the sensory experience. In the Buddha's words, "You will not be 'in that'". You no longer view, perceive or even think that there is a 'me' involved in life. In the words of the doctor in the original series of Star Trek, "It is life, Jim, but not as we know it"! There is no longer any sense of self, or soul, at the centre of experience. You are no more 'in that'.
Just to close off the loophole that you might think you can escape non-existence of a self or soul by identifying with a transcendental state of being beyond what is seen, heard, sensed or cognized, the Buddha thunders, "and you will be neither here (with the seen, heard, sensed or cognized) nor beyond (outside of the seen, heard, sensed or cognized) nor in between the two (neither of the world nor beyond the world). The last phrase comprehensively confounded the sophists!
In summary, the Buddha advised both Bāhiya and Venerable Mālunkyaputta to experience the Jhānas to suppress the Five Hindrances. Thereby one will discern with certainty the absence of a self or a soul behind the sensory process. Consequently, sensory experience will never again be taken as evidence of a 'knower' or a 'doer': such that you will never imagine a self or a soul at the centre of experience, nor beyond, nor anywhere else. Bāhiya's Teaching put in a nutshell the way to the realization of No-Self, Anattā. "Just this", concluded the Buddha "is the end of suffering".
DHAMMATALKS.NET
Ajahn Brahmavamso - BĀHIYA'S TEACHING
Ajahn Brahmavamso - BĀHIYA'S TEACHING
1

Reply
Remove Preview
1d


Soh Wei Yu
Ajahn brahmavamso criticising teachers who get stuck at I AM:
From Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond
The Buddha’s Word on the One Who Knows
Even some good, practicing monks fail to breach illusion’s last line of defense, the knower. They take “the one who knows,” “the original mind,” “the pure knowing,” or some other descriptions of the citta as the ultimate and permanent reality. To be accurate, such concepts belong to the teachings of Hinduism and not to Buddhism, for the Buddha clearly refuted these theories as not penetrating deeply enough.
For instance, in the first sutta in the first collection of Buddhist scriptures, the Brahmajāla Sutta, the Buddha described in detail sixty-two types of wrong view (micchā diṭṭhi). Wrong view number eight is the opinion that the thing that is called citta, or mind (mano), or consciousness (viññāṇa) is the permanent self (attā)—stable, eternal, not subject to change, forever the same (DN 1,2,13). Thus maintaining that “the one who knows” is eternal is micchā diṭṭhi, wrong view, says the Buddha.
In the Nidāna Saṃyutta, the Buddha states:
But, bhikkhus, that which is called “mind” [citta] and “mentality” [mano] and “consciousness” [viññāṇa]—the uninstructed worldling is unable to experience revulsion towards it, unable to become dispassionate towards it and be liberated from it. For what reason? Because for a long time this has been held to by him, appropriated, and grasped thus: “This is mine, this I am, this is self.”…
It would be better, bhikkhus, for the uninstructed worldling to take as self [attā] this body…because this body…is seen standing…for [as long as] a hundred years, or even longer. But that which is called “mind” and “mentality” and “consciousness” arises as one thing and ceases as another by day and by night. (SN 12,61)
However, just as the hard scientific evidence mentioned earlier cannot dislodge the view that it is oneself who is the doer, so even the hard scriptural evidence of the Buddha’s own teachings is unable on its own to dislodge the view that “the one who knows” is the ultimate entity, the attā. Some even argue that these Buddhist texts must have been changed, solely on the grounds that the texts disagree with their view!
Such irrational stubbornness comes from bhavataṇhā, the craving to be. Bhavataṇhā is so strong that one is prepared to let go of almost everything—possessions, one’s body, and one’s thoughts—as long as one is finally left with something, some tiny spot of existence, in order to be. After all, one wants to enjoy parinibbāna, thoroughgoing extinction, having worked so hard to get there. Bhavataṇhā is why many great meditators are unable to agree with the Buddha and make that final leap of renunciation that lets go of absolutely everything, including the citta. Even though the Buddha said that “nothing is worth adhering to” (sabbe dhammā nālam abhinivesāya) (MN 37,3), people still adhere to the citta. They continue to hold on to the knower and elevate it to unwarranted levels of mystical profundity by calling it “the ground of all being,” “union with God,” “the original mind,” etc.—even though the Buddha strongly refuted all such clinging, saying that all levels of being stink, the way even a tiny speck of feces on one’s hand stinks (AN I,18,13).
One needs the experiences of many jhānas, combined with a sound knowledge of the Buddha’s own teachings, in order to break through the barrier of bhavataṇhā, the craving to be, and see for oneself that what some call “the citta,” “mind,” “consciousness,” or “the one who knows” is only an empty process, one that is fueled by the craving to be and blinded by the delusion of permanence, but which is clearly of the nature to cease absolutely and leave nothing at all remaining (...)
2
auto
Posts: 4582
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Question about "luminous mind" in Thai Forest Buddhism

Post by auto »

xabir wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 7:32 pm What you are describing is just nirvikalpa samadhi in the I AM. It is not particularly special and is not unknown to us in AtR
John Tan, I and many others have experienced tremendously blissful samadhi absorption in Self.
it is a state where the unmoving awareness is in.
xabir wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 7:32 pm As I wrote recently, John Tan sat for hours each time in nirvikalpa samadhi with his Ch'an master in Thailand during his I AM stage.
its a one time state, next comes something else. It lasts a moment.
xabir wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 7:32 pm absorption in the Self without the distractions of other sensory phenomena
From above it is not clear if it is an altered state or whether it is something you experience in normal aware mind
The state is the result of concentration on oneself. Once you are in the state, you are it and there is no trace of movement, when movement starts you will emerge from it.
xabir wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 7:32 pm In my case, the initial experience happened during a meditation which led me to the misassumption of 'I AM'. The experience is pure, but the latter interpretation of it was wrong.
In 'No-I' experience, one simply realised that there is no self in any experience even when consciousness is rolling own.
the state occurs when you do concentration on oneself, thus one having pretty good idea about the awareness and permanent aspect of it already.
xabir wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 7:32 pm 2. In the 1990s, i join a meditation class that held sessions every Sunday at a Buddhist temple. I was learning one-point meditation. One afternoon when i was meditating at home, all the sensory impressions stopped including thoughts. I was in a state of 'No-thoughts'. One may think that when there are no thoughts, one must be unconscious. No there is no unconsciousness. Instead what was being experienced was pure Presence/awareness. However due to not understanding the nature of consciousness and reality, this awareness was experienced as an Eternal Witness/Observer. This is the pure experience of I AM presence.
have seen before people interpret their 'becoming aware' as something where senses are off. This clearly says sense impressions are off, it is something else than blackout state.

Thusness and you and many others are confusing becoming aware state with the blackout state. Balckoutstate lasts a moment, it occurs once and you can't repeat it. 1,2,3,1,2,3.. pictorially it happens on three, there are states in between. And the state is going to be different, there won't be entering a state and emerging, that state is transcended after single experience.
auto
Posts: 4582
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Question about "luminous mind" in Thai Forest Buddhism

Post by auto »

xabir wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 7:35 pm Even some good, practicing monks fail to breach illusion’s last line of defense, the knower. They take “the one who knows,” “the original mind,” “the pure knowing,” or some other descriptions of the citta as the ultimate and permanent reality. To be accurate, such concepts belong to the teachings of Hinduism and not to Buddhism, for the Buddha clearly refuted these theories as not penetrating deeply enough.
Why name something differently from what it is empirically. What feels permanent, it is what it is. And more importantly you can attain it firsthand and know that there is a reality where this knower exists.

Call it being within the sakkaya, i don't mind, but its useless if you deny it that it is there.

Why not ask about the large amount of states what come after.. for some reason can't find discussions about those. Well those are not achieved due not even having experience with the permanent thing
auto
Posts: 4582
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Question about "luminous mind" in Thai Forest Buddhism

Post by auto »

The blackout state opens the center in brain. After that there is attained the ability to concentrate on the center in lower abdomen. There isn't things like "oh, where i should hold my focus, on nose or belly?" the things what are done are all calculated so to speak.

These centers are extensions of the regular breath. If to breath out or in then at the end the ordinary breath stops(limited), whereas these centers extend further into cavities to where the gathered substance will be released(by using mind).

Regards to the cultivation the important thing is to meditate till you need start use effort to keep meditating and just press on till emotions will merge with pain(from wanting to quit meditation).
How fast you going to make progress is dependent on how many times you have done the above, there isn't freebies.
xabir
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 8:59 am

Re: Question about "luminous mind" in Thai Forest Buddhism

Post by xabir »

auto wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 2:25 pm Why name something differently from what it is empirically. What feels permanent, it is what it is. And more importantly you can attain it firsthand and know that there is a reality where this knower exists.
“Session Start: Tuesday, 10 July, 2007

(11:35 AM) Thusness: X last time used to say something like we should 'yi jue' (rely on awareness) and not 'yi xin' (rely on thoughts) bcos jue is everlasting, thoughts are impermanent... something like that. this is not right. this is advaita teaching.
(11:35 AM) AEN: oic
(11:36 AM) Thusness: now what is most difficult to understand in buddhism is this. to experience the unchanging is not difficult. but to experience impermanence yet know the unborn nature is prajna wisdom. It would be a misconception to think that Buddha do not know the state of unchanging. or when Buddha talked about unchanging it is referring to an unchanging background. otherwise why would i have stressed so much about the misunderstanding and misinterpretation. And of course, it is a misunderstanding that I have not experienced the unchanging. :) what you must know is to develop the insight into impermanence and yet realised the unborn. this then is prajna wisdom. to 'see' permanence and say it is unborn is momentum. when buddha say permanence it is not referring to that. to go beyond the momentum you must be able to be naked for a prolong period of time. then experience impermanence itself, not labelling anything. the seals are even more important than the buddha in person. even buddha when misunderstood it becomes sentient. :) longchen [Sim Pern Chong] wrote an interesting passage on closinggap. reincarnation.
(11:47 AM) AEN: oh ya i read it
(11:48 AM) Thusness: the one he clarify kyo's reply?
(11:50 AM) AEN: ya
(11:50 AM) Thusness: that reply is a very important reply, and it also proves that longchen has realised the importance of transients and the five aggregates as buddha nature. time for unborn nature. You see, it takes one to go through such phases, from "I AM" to Non-dual to isness then to the very very basic of what buddha taught… Can you see that?
(11:52 AM) AEN: yea
(11:52 AM) Thusness: the more one experience, the more truth one sees in what buddha taught in the most basic teaching. Whatever longchen experience is not because he read what buddha taught, but because he really experience it.
(11:54 AM) AEN: icic..”


...............
2008:

The arising and ceasing is called the Transience,
Is self luminous and self perfected from beginning.
However due to the karmic propensity that divides,
The mind separates the ‘brilliance’ from the ever arising and ceasing.
This karmic illusion constructs ‘the brilliance’,
Into an object that is permanent and unchanging.
The ‘unchanging’ which appears unimaginably real,
Only exists in subtle thinking and recalling.
In essence the luminosity is itself empty,
Is already unborn, unconditioned and ever pervading.
Therefore fear not the arising and ceasing.

-------------

There is no this that is more this than that.
Although thought arises and ceases vividly,
Every arising and ceasing remains as entire as it can be.

The emptiness nature that is ever manifesting presently
Has not in anyway denied its own luminosity.

Although non-dual is seen with clarity,
The urge to remain can still blind subtly.
Like a passerby that passes, is gone completely.
Die utterly
And bear witness of this pure presence, its non-locality.

~ Thusness/Passerby


And hence... "Awareness" is not anymore "special" or "ultimate" than the transient mind.
Labels: All is Mind, Anatta, Non Dual |

----------------


Again, as I stress, this is not denial of 'knower' but understanding its nondual and anatta nature.

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2019/ ... n-non.html

Excerpt:


2007:


(11:42 PM) Thusness: i have always said it is not the denial of eternal witness.
(11:42 PM) Thusness: but what exactly is that eternal witness?
(11:42 PM) Thusness: it is the real understanding of eternal witness.
(11:43 PM) AEN: yeah i tot so
(11:43 PM) AEN: so its something like david carse right
(11:43 PM) Thusness: without the 'seeing' and 'veil' of momentum, of reacting to propensities.
(11:43 PM) AEN: emptiness, yet luminous
(11:43 PM) AEN: icic
(11:43 PM) Thusness: however when one quote what buddha said, does he understand first of all.
(11:43 PM) Thusness: is he seeing eternal witness as in the advaita?
(11:44 PM) AEN: he's probably confused
(11:44 PM) Thusness: or is he seeing free from propensities.
(11:44 PM) AEN: he never explicitly mention but i believe his understanding is something like that la
(11:44 PM) Thusness: so there is no point quoting if it is not seen.
(11:44 PM) AEN: icic
(11:44 PM) Thusness: otherwise it is just saying the atman view again.
(11:44 PM) Thusness: so u should be very clear by now...and not to be confused.
(11:44 PM) AEN: icic
(11:45 PM) Thusness: what have i told u?
(11:45 PM) Thusness: u have also written in ur blog.
(11:45 PM) Thusness: what is eternal witness?
(11:45 PM) Thusness: it is the manifestation...moment to moment of arising
(11:45 PM) Thusness: does one see with the propensities and what is really it?
(11:45 PM) Thusness: that is more important.
(11:46 PM) Thusness: i have said so many times that the experience is correct but the understanding is wrong.
(11:46 PM) Thusness: wrong view.
(11:46 PM) Thusness: and how perception influence experience and wrong understanding.
(11:46 PM) Thusness: so don't quote here and there with just a snap shot...
(11:47 PM) Thusness: be very very clear and know with wisdom so that u will know what is right and wrong view.
(11:47 PM) Thusness: otherwise u will be reading this and get confused with that.


2007:

(3:55 PM) Thusness: it is not to deny the existence of the luminosity
(3:55 PM) Thusness: the knowingness
(3:55 PM) Thusness: but rather to have the correct view of what consciousness is.
(3:56 PM) Thusness: like non-dual
(3:56 PM) Thusness: i said there is no witness apart from the manifestation, the witness is really the manifestation
(3:56 PM) Thusness: this is the first part
(3:56 PM) Thusness: since the witness is the manifestation, how is it so?
(3:57 PM) Thusness: how is the one is really the many?
(3:57 PM) AEN: conditions?
(3:57 PM) Thusness: saying that the one is the many is already wrong.
(3:57 PM) Thusness: this is using conventional way of expression.
(3:57 PM) Thusness: for in reality, there is no such thing of the 'one'
(3:57 PM) Thusness: and the many
(3:58 PM) Thusness: there is only arising and ceasing due to emptiness nature
(3:58 PM) Thusness: and the arising and ceasing itself is the clarity.
(3:58 PM) Thusness: there is no clarity apart from the phenomena
(4:00 PM) Thusness: if we experience non-dual like ken wilber and talk about the atman.
(4:00 PM) Thusness: though the experience is true, the understanding is wrong.
(4:00 PM) Thusness: this is similar to "I AM".
(4:00 PM) Thusness: except that it is higher form of experience.
(4:00 PM) Thusness: it is non-dual.




Session Start: Sunday, October 19, 2008

(1:01 PM) Thusness: Yes
(1:01 PM) Thusness: Actually practice is not to deny this 'Jue' (awareness)

(6:11 PM) Thusness: the way u explained as if 'there is no Awareness'.
(6:11 PM) Thusness: People at times mistaken what u r trying to convey.but to correctly understand this 'jue' so that it can be experienced from all moments effortlessly.
(1:01 PM) Thusness: But when a practitioner heard that it is not 'IT', they immediately began to worry because it is their most precious state.
(1:01 PM) Thusness: All the phases written is about this 'Jue' or Awareness.
(1:01 PM) Thusness: However what Awareness really is isn't correctly experienced.
(1:01 PM) Thusness: Because it isn't correctly experienced, we say that 'Awareness that u try to keep' does not exist in such a way.
(1:01 PM) Thusness: It does not mean there is no Awareness.

2010:

(12:02 AM) Thusness: it is not that there is no awareness
(12:02 AM) Thusness: it is understanding awareness not from a subject/object view
(12:02 AM) Thusness: not from an inherent view
(12:03 AM) Thusness: that is dissolving subject/object understanding into events, action, karma
(12:04 AM) Thusness: then we gradually understand that the 'feeling' of someone there is really just a 'sensation' of an inherent view
(12:04 AM) Thusness: means a 'sensation', a 'thought'
of
an
inherent view
:P
(12:06 AM) Thusness: how this lead to liberation requires the direct experience
(12:06 AM) Thusness: so liberation it is not freedom from 'self' but freedom from 'inherent view'
(12:07 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:07 AM) Thusness: get it?
(12:07 AM) Thusness: but it is important to experience luminosity

Session Start: Saturday, 27 March, 2010

(9:54 PM) Thusness: Not bad for self-enquiry
(9:55 PM) AEN: icic..
btw what do u think lucky and chandrakirti is trying to convey
(9:56 PM) Thusness: those quotes weren't really well translated in my opinion.
(9:57 PM) Thusness: what needs be understood is 'No I' is not to deny Witnessing consciousness.
(9:58 PM) Thusness: and 'No Phenomena' is not to deny Phenomena
(9:59 PM) Thusness: It is just for the purpose of 'de-constructing' the mental constructs.
(10:00 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:01 PM) Thusness: when u hear sound, u cannot deny it...can u?
(10:01 PM) AEN: ya
(10:01 PM) Thusness: so what r u denying?
(10:02 PM) Thusness: when u experience the Witness as u described in ur thread 'certainty of being', how can u deny this realization?
(10:03 PM) Thusness: so what is does 'no I' and 'no phenomena' mean?
(10:03 PM) AEN: like u said its only mental constructs that are false... but consciousness cant be denied ?
(10:03 PM) Thusness: no...i am not saying that
Buddha never deny the aggregates
(10:04 PM) Thusness: just the selfhood
(10:04 PM) Thusness: the problem is what is meant by 'non-inherent', empty nature, of phenomena and 'I'

2010:

(11:15 PM) Thusness: but understanding it wrongly is another matter
can u deny Witnessing?
(11:16 PM) Thusness: can u deny that certainty of being?
(11:16 PM) AEN: no
(11:16 PM) Thusness: then there is nothing wrong with it
how could u deny ur very own existence?
(11:17 PM) Thusness: how could u deny existence at all
(11:17 PM) Thusness: there is nothing wrong experiencing directly without intermediary the pure sense of existence
(11:18 PM) Thusness: after this direct experience, u should refine ur understanding, ur view, ur insights
(11:19 PM) Thusness: not after the experience, deviate from the right view, re-enforce ur wrong view
(11:19 PM) Thusness: u do not deny the witness, u refine ur insight of it
what is meant by non-dual
(11:19 PM) Thusness: what is meant by non-conceptual
what is being spontaneous
what is the 'impersonality' aspect
(11:20 PM) Thusness: what is luminosity.
(11:20 PM) Thusness: u never experience anything unchanging
(11:21 PM) Thusness: in later phase, when u experience non-dual, there is still this tendency to focus on a background... and that will prevent ur progress into the direct insight into the TATA as described in the tata article.
(11:22 PM) Thusness: and there are still different degree of intensity even u realized to that level.
(11:23 PM) AEN: non dual?
(11:23 PM) Thusness: tada (an article) is more than non-dual...it is phase 5-7
(11:24 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:24 PM) Thusness: it is all about the integration of the insight of anatta and emptiness
(11:25 PM) Thusness: vividness into transience, feeling what i called 'the texture and fabric' of Awareness as forms is very important
then come emptiness
(11:26 PM) Thusness: the integration of luminosity and emptiness


(10:45 PM) Thusness: do not deny that Witnessing but refine the view, that is very important
(10:46 PM) Thusness: so far, u have correctly emphasized the importance of witnessing
(10:46 PM) Thusness: unlike in the past, u gave ppl the impression that u r denying this witnessing presence
(10:46 PM) Thusness: u merely deny the personification, reification and objectification
(10:47 PM) Thusness: so that u can progress further and realize our empty nature.
but don't always post what i told u in msn
(10:48 PM) Thusness: in no time, i will become sort of cult leader
(10:48 PM) AEN: oic.. lol
(10:49 PM) Thusness: anatta is no ordinary insight. When we can reach the level of thorough transparency, u will realize the benefits
(10:50 PM) Thusness: non-conceptuality, clarity, luminosity, transparency, openness, spaciousness, thoughtlessness, non-locality...all these descriptions become quite meaningless.


2009:


(7:39 PM) Thusness: it is always witnessing...don't get it wrong
just whether one understand its emptiness nature or not.
(7:39 PM) Thusness: there is always luminosity
since when there is no witnessing?
(7:39 PM) Thusness: it is just luminosity and emptiness nature
not luminosity alone

(9:59 PM) Thusness: there is always this witnessing...it is the divided sense that u have to get rid
(9:59 PM) Thusness: that is why i never deny the witness experience and realization, just the right understanding

2008:


(2:58 PM) Thusness: There is no problem being the witness, the problem is only wrong understanding of what witness is.
(2:58 PM) Thusness: That is seeing duality in Witnessing.
(2:58 PM) Thusness: or seeing 'Self' and other, subject-object division. That is the problem.
(2:59 PM) Thusness: U can call it Witnessing or Awareness, there must be no sense of self.



(11:21 PM) Thusness: yes witnessing
not witness
(11:22 PM) Thusness: in witnessing, it is always non-dual
(11:22 PM) Thusness: when in witness, it is always a witness and object being witness
when there is an observer, there is no such thing as no observed
(11:23 PM) Thusness: when u realised that there is only witnessing, there is no observer and observed
it is always non-dual
(11:24 PM) Thusness: that is why when genpo something said there is no witness only witnessing, yet taught the staying back and observed
(11:24 PM) Thusness: i commented the path deviates from the view
(11:25 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:25 PM) Thusness: when u teach experience the witness, u teach that
that is not about no subject-object split
u r teaching one to experience that witness
(11:26 PM) Thusness: first stage of insight of the "I AM"


2008:


(2:52 PM) Thusness: r u denying the "I AMness" experience?

(2:54 PM) AEN: u mean in the post?

(2:54 PM) AEN: no

(2:54 PM) AEN: its more like the nature of 'i am' rite

(2:54 PM) Thusness: what is being denied?

(2:54 PM) AEN: the dualistic understanding?

(2:55 PM) Thusness: yes it is the wrong understanding of that experience. Just like 'redness' of a flower.

(2:55 PM) AEN: oic..

(2:55 PM) Thusness: Vivid and seems real and belongs to the flower. It only appears so, it is not so.

(2:57 PM) Thusness: When we see in terms of subject/object dichotomy, it appears puzzling that there is thoughts, no thinker. There is sound, no hearer and there is rebirth, but no permanent soul being reborn.

(2:58 PM) Thusness: It is puzzling because of our deeply held view of seeing things inherently where dualism is a subset of this 'inherent' seeing.

(2:59 PM) Thusness: So what is the problem?

(2:59 PM) AEN: icic..

(2:59 PM) AEN: the deeply held views?

(2:59 PM) Thusness: yeah

(2:59 PM) Thusness: what is the problem?

(3:01 PM) AEN: back

(3:02 PM) Thusness: The problem is the root cause of suffering lies in this deeply held view. We search and are attached because these views. This is the relationship between 'view' and 'consciousness'. There is no escape. With inherent view, there is always 'I' and 'Mine'. There is always 'belongs' like the 'redness' belongs to the flower.

(3:02 PM) Thusness: Therefore despite all transcendental experiences, there is no liberation without right understanding.
auto
Posts: 4582
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Question about "luminous mind" in Thai Forest Buddhism

Post by auto »

xabir wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 3:18 pm Again, as I stress, this is not denial of 'knower' but understanding its nondual and anatta nature.
I focus on what self feels like, what is to be it. Can use my eyes to focus on it after having mental gist of it. After knowing what it is in heart, i can simply focus on that, by then it has no sense of self, but i know what it is.
http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html wrote:Soh: To realize I AM, the most direct method is Self-Inquiry, asking yourself 'Before birth, Who am I?' or just 'Who am I?
whereas you tell that it's(sense of self) what needs be removed or reconstructed, well yeah but its not you who does it, just reach the heart, despite having no sense of self, you still know what it is from its origin.

I would agree the self is imputed, but the other way around(without negative connotations), something what doesn't feel self, is learned that it is the self.
xabir wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 4:46 pm Now my realization has progressed into nondual, anatta and emptiness. I no longer reify a truly existing, unchanging and separate Witness apart from phenomena.

It has nothing to do with denying the knowingness, the luminosity of mind/manifestation, etc.
you might not deny knower, but your negative connotations do deny.
xabir
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 8:59 am

Re: Question about "luminous mind" in Thai Forest Buddhism

Post by xabir »

auto wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 4:17 pm
xabir wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 3:18 pm Again, as I stress, this is not denial of 'knower' but understanding its nondual and anatta nature.
I focus on what self feels like, what is to be it. Can use my eyes to focus on it after having mental gist of it. After knowing what it is in heart, i can simply focus on that, by then it has no sense of self, but i know what it is.
http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html wrote:Soh: To realize I AM, the most direct method is Self-Inquiry, asking yourself 'Before birth, Who am I?' or just 'Who am I?
whereas you tell that it's(sense of self) what needs be removed or reconstructed, well yeah but its not you who does it, just reach the heart, despite having no sense of self, you still know what it is from its origin.
Your realization of AMness or pure Beingness or Heart prior to conceptualization is correct and important. Must extend to all six senses and with pointers by Buddha (like Bahiya Sutta: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/ ... y-and.html ), https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com ... neous.html etc, break through to the realization of no-self and Presence extends naturally as all manifestation without agent.

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2007/ ... mness.html

Like a river flowing into the ocean, the self dissolves into nothingness. When a practitioner becomes thoroughly clear about the illusionary nature of the individuality, subject-object division does not take place. A person experiencing “AMness” will find “AMness in everything”. What is it like?
Being freed from individuality -- coming and going, life and death, all phenomenon merely pop in and out from the background of the AMness. The AMness is not experienced as an ‘entity’ residing anywhere, neither within nor without; rather it is experienced as the ground reality for all phenomenon to take place. Even in the moment of subsiding (death), the yogi is thoroughly authenticated with that reality; experiencing the ‘Real’ as clear as it can be. We cannot lose that AMness; rather all things can only dissolve and re-emerges from it. The AMness has not moved, there is no coming and going. This "AMness" is God.

Practitioners should never mistake this as the true Buddha Mind! "I AMness" is the pristine awareness. That is why it is so overwhelming. Just that there is no 'insight' into its emptiness nature. Nothing stays and nothing to hold on to. What is real, is pristine and flows, what stays is illusion. The sinking back to a background or Source is due to being blinded by strong karmic propensities of a 'Self'. It is a layer of ‘bond’ that prevents us from ‘seeing’ something…it is very subtle, very thin, very fine…it goes almost undetected. What this ‘bond’ does is it prevents us from ‘seeing’ what “WITNESS” really is and makes us constantly fall back to the Witness, to the Source, to the Center. Every moment we want to sink back to Witness, to the Center, to this Beingness, this is an illusion. It is habitual and almost hypnotic.

But what exactly is this “witness” we are talking about? It is the manifestation itself! It is the appearance itself! There is no Source to fall back, the Appearance is the Source! Including the moment to moment of thoughts. The problem is we choose, but all is really it. There is nothing to choose.

There is no mirror reflecting
All along manifestation alone is.
The one hand claps
Everything IS!

....

When consciousness experiences the pure sense of “I AM”, overwhelmed by the transcendental thoughtless moment of Beingness, consciousness clings to that experience as its purest identity. By doing so, it subtly creates a ‘watcher’ and fails to see that the ‘Pure Sense of Existence’ is nothing but an aspect of pure consciousness relating to the thought realm. This in turn serves as the karmic condition that prevents the experience of pure consciousness that arises from other sense-objects. Extending it to the other senses, there is hearing without a hearer and seeing without a seer -- the experience of Pure Sound-Consciousness is radically different from Pure Sight-Consciousness. Sincerely, if we are able to give up ‘I’ and replace it with “Emptiness Nature”, Consciousness is experienced as non-local. There isn't a state that is purer than the other. All is just One Taste, the manifold of Presence.

The ‘who’, ‘where’ and ‘when’, the ‘I’, ‘here’ and ‘now’ must ultimately give way to the experience of total transparency. Do not fall back to a source, just the manifestation is sufficient. This will become so clear that total transparency is experienced. When total transparency is stabilized, transcendental body is experienced and dharmakaya is seen everywhere. This is the samadhi bliss of Bodhisattva. This is the fruition of practice.


.....

Also,

I wrote this in 2019:

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2019/ ... heart.html

The Transient Universe has a Heart
Also see: What All Religions Have in Common: Light
Vipassana Must Go With Luminous Manifestation
The Unbounded Field of Awareness
Fully Experience All-Is-Mind by Realizing No-Mind and Conditionality
Exertion that is neither self-imposed nor imposed by others
Actual Freedom and the Immediate Radiance in the Transience

Dogen on the Heart of Tiles:
If we belittle tiles as being lumps of clay, we will also belittle people as being lumps of clay. If people have a Heart, then tiles too will have a Heart.
Shobogenzo, Kokyo, Hubert Nearman


I mentioned earlier that I will write something about dull nondual experience and realising the Presence or the Heart.

There is something tremendously alive, intelligent, a quality of pure Presence and that is nothing inert but intensely luminous (not in the sutric definition of purity and emptiness) but in the sense that the intensity of our cognizant mind evokes the sense of powerful radiance and illumination but without any separation between an illuminator and the illuminated, with absolutely no agent/perceiver/doer involved. It can evoke the sense of a radiance that is so intense that it completely outshines all visual darkness of night and brightness of the sun. This Presence is mystically alive, wondrous and magnificent, “more real than real”, and the complete opposite of an inert or merely some dull state of non conceptuality and absorption.

This outshining of Presence-Awareness is not about some hidden invisible background existing behind manifestation (which will be perceived this way at the I AM stage) but is vividly manifest or “Presencing” (Presencing is a better word than Presence as it is not a static background or entity and none other than the dynamic stuff of transience) as the very “realness” or “vividness” of any appearance/display, color, sound, scent, touch, taste, thought, as if everything comes alive and there is something very wonderful and beautiful about it. The brilliant light of Presence-Awareness is none other than the body-mind-universe which when deconstructed and freed from self/Self/physicality is experienced as spheres of vivid light, colors, sounds, and sensations.

This luminosity is also not merely a heightened state of clarity as I explained:

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/ ... ty-vs-clar

“Someone asked me about luminosity. I said it is not simply a state of heightened clarity or mindfulness, but like touching the very heart of your being, your reality, your very essence without a shadow of doubt. It is a radiant, shining core of Presence-Awareness, or Existence itself. It is the More Real than Real. It can be from a question of "Who am I?" followed by a sudden realization. And then with further insights you touch the very life, the very heart, of everything. Everything comes alive. First as the innermost 'You', then later when the centerpoint is dropped (seen through -- there is no 'The Center') every 'point' is equally so, every point is A 'center', in every encounter, form, sound and activity.”

There is a wide variety of methods to bring oneself to an abrupt stoppage of concepts and a face to face encounter of Pure Presence. All sorts of ways actually, some are safer and some are a bit more risky. For example Thusness, I, Ramana Maharshi, Ch'an Master Hsu Yun and many others have awakened through self-enquiry and we are exponents of the method of self-enquiry. Sim Pern Chong awakened to the I AM through breath meditation. Some get awakened through a mere pointing out by a teacher. Some awakened through yogic, tantric, kundalini paths. Ram Dass, David Carse and others have had their initial realization of the Heart-essence through the use of psychedelic drugs like magic mushrooms, ayahuasca, 5-MEO-DMT, LSD, and so on. (I am not advocating the use of drugs here, just stating that some people have used them with such results) There are many other methods and koans I did not mention.

And yet, many have awakened through a simple shout by a Zen Master or a Dzogchen Master. A sudden unexpected KATZ! or a PHAT! of a Zen and Dzogchen master brings one into the immediate thoughtless face-to-face encounter of the luminous heart-essence. At that moment, you just shift out from all that nonsense and garbage in your head into just that instance of being blanked out into Presence. It is not an inert trance but an alert, alive and yet thoughtless state of Presence. Try it!
But whatever method one uses to introduce that initial glimpse and taste of Presence, it is always through the deepening of insight into non-dual anatta that brings that taste to effortless uncontrivance and full-blown maturity in all encounters and manifestations.

So when one has access to a state of nondual, one should ask whether it is dull and inert or suffused with a powerful sense of Presence. After anatta this Presence is no longer seen as a background but vividly shining forth as the manifold dynamic and seamlessly interconnected display, and the play of dharma and dependent origination is something which is alive, not just inert and mechanistic as someone wrote. All the qualities of I AM - infinite like space, powerful Presence, Luminosity, Clarity, Vitality and Intelligence are effortlessly experienced without contrivance, and furthermore no longer seen as something hidden behind but fully manifested from moment to moment activity and the sense of cosmic Impersonality which was once experienced as being lived through a reified cosmic intelligence is now experienced as the total exertion where a single activity is the exertion of the Whole - an activity that is seamlessly connected and coordinated with the entire Whole, a spontaneous exertion of the Whole of seamless dependencies. In other words all the taste of Presence similar to the I AM, including all the four aspects of I AM and the experience of anatta as requisites are fully present in the experience of Maha suchness, which is an experience of greatness beyond measure, where even a single breath feels cosmic and limitless.

"The purpose of anatta is to have full blown experience of the heart -- boundlessly, completely, non-dually and non-locally. Re-read what I wrote to Jax.

In every situations, in all conditions, in all events. It is to eliminate unnecessary contrivity so that our essence can be expressed without obscuration.

Jax wants to point to the heart but is unable to express in a non-dual way... for in duality, the essence cannot be realized. All dualistic interpretation are mind made. You know the smile of Mahākāśyapa? Can you touch the heart of that smile even 2500 yrs later?

One must lose all mind and body by feeling with entire mind and body this essence which is 心 (Mind). Yet 心 (Mind) too is 不可得 (ungraspable/unobtainable).. The purpose is not to deny 心 (Mind) but rather not to place any limitations or duality so that 心 (Mind) can fully manifest.

Therefore without understanding 缘 (conditions),is to limit 心 (Mind). without understanding 缘 (conditions),is to place limitation in its manifestations. You must fully experience 心 (Mind) by realizing 无心 (No-Mind) and fully embrace the wisdom of 不可得 (ungraspable/unobtainable)." - John Tan/Thusness, 2014
Labels: Anatta, Luminosity |
auto
Posts: 4582
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Question about "luminous mind" in Thai Forest Buddhism

Post by auto »

xabir wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 4:36 pm Like a river flowing into the ocean, the self dissolves into nothingness. When a practitioner becomes thoroughly clear about the illusionary nature of the individuality, subject-object division does not take place. A person experiencing “AMness” will find “AMness in everything”. What is it like?
Being freed from individuality -- coming and going, life and death, all phenomenon merely pop in and out from the background of the AMness. The AMness is not experienced as an ‘entity’ residing anywhere, neither within nor without; rather it is experienced as the ground reality for all phenomenon to take place. Even in the moment of subsiding (death), the yogi is thoroughly authenticated with that reality; experiencing the ‘Real’ as clear as it can be. We cannot lose that AMness; rather all things can only dissolve and re-emerges from it. The AMness has not moved, there is no coming and going. This "AMness" is God.
Nah, there is individuality by definition, sakkaya. The body in being. Sat = existence.
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/s/sakk%C4%81ya/ wrote:PTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary
Sakkāya,[sat+kāya,cp.BSk.satkāya Divy 46; AvŚ I.85.See on expln of term Mrs.Rh.D.in J.R.A.S.1894,324; Franke Dīgha trsln p.45; Geiger P.Gr.§ 241; Kern.Toev.II.52] the body in being,the existing body or group (=--nikāya q.v.)
; as a t.t.in P.psychology almost equal to individuality; identified with the five khandhas M.I,299; S.III,159; IV,259; A.II,34; Th.2,170,239; DhsA.348.See also D.III,216 (cp.Dial.III,2161); A.III,293,401; Nd1 109.
luminosity is what is thought to be the atta, whereas there is also the knower
xabir wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 4:36 pm “Someone asked me about luminosity. I said it is not simply a state of heightened clarity or mindfulness, but like touching the very heart of your being, your reality, your very essence without a shadow of doubt. It is a radiant, shining core of Presence-Awareness, or Existence itself. It is the More Real than Real. It can be from a question of "Who am I?" followed by a sudden realization. And then with further insights you touch the very life, the very heart, of everything. Everything comes alive. First as the innermost 'You', then later when the centerpoint is dropped (seen through -- there is no 'The Center') every 'point' is equally so, every point is A 'center', in every encounter, form, sound and activity.”
That state of heightened clarity and mindfulness is the manifestation of illness, old age and suffering. When awareness rises its too late to fix things(to get rid of suffering).
Thus the idea of finding the one who is aware. The reality where the knower resides, can be attained - It is or is in the centerpoint, under big brain.
Post Reply