Five Hindrances - Buddha

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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mjaviem
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 8:10 pm I see little relevance here regarding the fact that the earliest texts say the Buddha and Arahants were not in Jhāna 24/7. You may find Mahāyāna texts which claim the Buddha was in samādhi 24/7, but I suspect they aren't using the word samādhi in terms of the 4 Jhānas.
When a Noble disciple who has right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right sati, and right samadhi, and awakens, Does he start telling lies, does he start doing harm, does he drop sati, does he drop samadhi?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 10:06 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 8:10 pm I see little relevance here regarding the fact that the earliest texts say the Buddha and Arahants were not in Jhāna 24/7. You may find Mahāyāna texts which claim the Buddha was in samādhi 24/7, but I suspect they aren't using the word samādhi in terms of the 4 Jhānas.
When a Noble disciple who has right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right sati, and right samadhi, and awakens, Does he start telling lies, does he start doing harm, does he drop sati, does he drop samadhi?
If by samadhi you mean Jhana, he isn’t always in it no. The path is a raft. Once you have crossed you don’t need to keep doing it, but you can if you want to as it’s a pleasant abiding whilst alive.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mjaviem
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 10:37 pm If by samadhi you mean Jhana, he isn’t always in it no. The path is a raft. Once you have crossed you don’t need to keep doing it, but you can if you want to as it’s a pleasant abiding whilst alive.
Exactly, a raft to cross to the other shore. Once there even the raft loses its meaning, it loses its purpose. What's the point of samadhi for those who already understand?
SN 56.1 wrote: At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, develop concentration. A bhikkhu who is concentrated understands things as they really are.

“And what does he understand as it really is? He understands as it really is: ‘This is suffering.’ He understands as it really is: ‘This is the origin of suffering.’ He understands as it really is: ‘This is the cessation of suffering.’ He understands as it really is: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’

“Bhikkhus, develop concentration. A bhikkhu who is concentrated understands things as they really are.
...
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 11:04 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 10:37 pm If by samadhi you mean Jhana, he isn’t always in it no. The path is a raft. Once you have crossed you don’t need to keep doing it, but you can if you want to as it’s a pleasant abiding whilst alive.
Exactly, a raft to cross to the other shore. Once there even the raft loses its meaning, it loses its purpose. What's the point of samadhi for those who already understand?
SN 56.1 wrote: At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, develop concentration. A bhikkhu who is concentrated understands things as they really are.

“And what does he understand as it really is? He understands as it really is: ‘This is suffering.’ He understands as it really is: ‘This is the origin of suffering.’ He understands as it really is: ‘This is the cessation of suffering.’ He understands as it really is: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’

“Bhikkhus, develop concentration. A bhikkhu who is concentrated understands things as they really are.
...
It’s a pleasant abiding whilst alive. Something that’s enjoyable to do and blameless.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
arkaprava
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by arkaprava »

Jhana is not just the removal of the five hindrances, it requires the five factors as well, as mentioned in MN 43.
Compare it with farming, it's not only sufficient to have adequate rainfall and fertile soil, you need to plant the crops, protect them from pests and insects.
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mjaviem
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 6:34 am It’s a pleasant abiding whilst alive. Something that’s enjoyable to do and blameless.
Yes, not consummate ones can enjoy this without blame
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NAD
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by NAD »

The Buddha said he often abides in ‘voidness’, which includes the Jhanas. 122 Mahāsuññata Sutta: The Greater Discourse on Voidness says the below, that he “abides”, which is implying that he is stable, or fixed in that state. If he was not in that state i’d expect this Sutta, or AN 3.63 to say something along the lines of ‘coming out of that abiding, i walk’. but it never does say this.

MN 122 has an Agama parrallel, MA 191.

“He gives attention to voidness externally… He gives attention to voidness internally and externally… He gives attention to imperturbability. While he is giving attention to imperturbability, his mind enters into imperturbability and acquires confidence, steadiness, and decision. When that is so, he understands thus: ‘While I am giving attention to imperturbability, my mind enters into imperturbability and acquires confidence, steadiness, and decision.’ In this way he has full awareness of that.
“When a bhikkhu abides thus, if his mind inclines to walking, he walks, thinking: ‘While I am walking thus, no evil unwholesome states of covetousness and grief will beset me.’ In this way he has full awareness of that. And when a bhikkhu abides thus, if his mind inclines to standing, he stands… If his mind inclines to sitting, he sits… If his mind inclines to lying down, he lies down, thinking: ‘While I am lying down thus, no evil unwholesome states will beset me.’ In this way he has full awareness of that.”

By saying “thinking” this is of course implying 1st Jhana only in this instance.
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by asahi »

The notion of right samadhi in the N8FP is different from the standard four type of jhana experience . Therefore , the right question should be , was Buddha always in right samadhi ! And i reckon that Buddha wasnt always in right samadhi . However , He could be constantly maintaining right sati most of the times .
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NAD
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by NAD »

asahi wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 7:15 am The notion of right samadhi in the N8FP is different from the standard four type of jhana experience . Therefore , the right question should be , was Buddha always in right samadhi ! And i reckon that Buddha wasnt always in right samadhi . However , He could be constantly maintaining right sati most of the times .
Why do you think he was not always in right samadhi?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by Ceisiwr »

NAD wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 7:35 am
asahi wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 7:15 am The notion of right samadhi in the N8FP is different from the standard four type of jhana experience . Therefore , the right question should be , was Buddha always in right samadhi ! And i reckon that Buddha wasnt always in right samadhi . However , He could be constantly maintaining right sati most of the times .
Why do you think he was not always in right samadhi?
Because he felt pain, and because we are told he has to enter the 1st Jhana when dying.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
asahi
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by asahi »

NAD wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 7:35 am
asahi wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 7:15 am The notion of right samadhi in the N8FP is different from the standard four type of jhana experience . Therefore , the right question should be , was Buddha always in right samadhi ! And i reckon that Buddha wasnt always in right samadhi . However , He could be constantly maintaining right sati most of the times .
Why do you think he was not always in right samadhi?
Right samadhi is right Concentration where the mind is Concentrated .
In daily living mode it is a non-absorbing state , right sati is sufficient for the necessary condition to function properly . Perhaps you might ask , how is one to determine if the mind isnt consider as Concentrated . A Non- Concentrated mind means the mind is doing Several function in a short interval . This mean your mind is divided already .
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by Ceisiwr »

You could also ask if the Buddha still had Right Energy. I would argue that he didn’t.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Ontheway
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by Ontheway »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 8:26 am You could also ask if the Buddha still had Right Energy. I would argue that he didn’t.
According to your understanding, it seems the Buddha is far less imperfect.

And that is contradictory to the title "Vijjācaraṇasampanno".
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by Ceisiwr »

Ontheway wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 12:54 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 8:26 am You could also ask if the Buddha still had Right Energy. I would argue that he didn’t.
According to your understanding, it seems the Buddha is far less imperfect.

And that is contradictory to the title "Vijjācaraṇasampanno".
Right Energy is preventing unwholesome states and maintaining wholesome ones. In practice it’s about abandoning your hindrances and establishing the awakening factors. The Buddha and Arahants don’t need to do that anymore, but they can establish the awakening factors if they wish to enter Jhana again. They don’t need effort to do that though.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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