what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
Joe.c
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Joe.c »

Asubha! Asubha! Asubha! Wilt thou leads me towards Nibbana? if I am not smart enough to understand the context in which the teacher used the word impure/asubha.
Take SN 54.9, Joe's selection, to prove that meditating on rotting bodies split open, is an essential feature of Buddhist meditation.
Cluesless indeed. Because to purify the mind, asubha may be needed for certain people. As i said not all people need to do it. If one look at samma vayama, they will understand. If not, well maybe look at other path. :juggling:
Asubha can mean unpleasant, ugly, threatening, sinister.
However when these words are applied to a physical body, it is one messy thing, cut up corpses maybe.
But applied to thoughts,
it will mean all thoughts that hinder spiritual progress, sleazy thoughts, ugly thoughts, festering thoughts, monstrous thoughts, hateful thoughts and bloody thoughts. In other words all hindrances!
Sutta in brief, simplified:
Who said to cut up the corpse. People just go to cemetary and observed how the corpse decompose. This type of practice has been done in many places. Right now don't have to do that, you can just open the computer and look at the biology subject and learn the whole body. Although the current science is not there yet.
Let us find out what Lawrence Kanthipola Mills thought of "At Vesali '' embedded within Anapanasati Samyutta. He was a well respected Buddhist scholar
The word is Scholar. Not a practicioner.

I salute anyone who practice even for a single snap of finger than any respected scholar in this world. What is the use of respected title, if at the end the "respected" body is died and the whole process (birth, oldage, death) will be repeated again. 😆
Pulsar wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:45 pm Last I checked
  • Samma sati and Samma samadhi fall under Samadhi
of the 8-fold path. 8 fold path has 3 aggregates, Sila, Samadhi and Panna.
Clueless indeed this person. Samadhi is not just sit and meditate. N8FP is practice in real life 24/7. Therefore it is start with samma ditthi. To get into samma vayama/samma sati/samma samadhi, one has right view and perfect morality for foundation. Otherwise there is no way one can know what the meaning of the samma samadhi is.

I also bet this person doesn't know the real meaning of samadhi. 😂 Because i know he can't unless he has enter the stream. Fyi samadhi means state of balance (equilibrium) in the any world that is unbalance.
SN 47.42 on Origination explains the sort of meditation required to bring DO to a halt. SN 47.42 does not mention corpses, and festering bodies, and does not expect the aspirant to meditate on earth, air, fire and water, but just the images, sounds, tastes, etc derived from those.
Why this person is holding on SN 47.42 while he han't even enter the stream? How can he investigate what the meaning of this sutta. Lol :shrug:
The point of 8-fold path is to bring mental or emotional suffering to an end.
At least there is still some understanding. But still cluess like most people in this world.
I have not seen this kind of meditation discussed in Abhidhamma.
And it is impossible the methods of meditation discussed under abhidhamma will fit the meditation proposed by the 8-fold path.
N8FP is not a sitting and meditate only.
In abhidhamma rupa of Nama-rupa is described as a physical factor, whereas in the 8-fold path designed to bring Dependent origination to a halt, Buddha defines rupa of Nama-rupa as a world phenomenon. I have already introduced a sutta from Samyutta Nikaya to support this, so I feel there is no need to repeat this. You can scroll back and check.
Abhidhamma got it wrong. But this person is totally clueless as well. 😂

What the heck is world phenomenon? Are we in a twilight world now? No where Buddha describe about the world, because his teaching is to transcend the world. 😅

Anyway good luck. It is truly hopeless. I guess this will be my last post for this person. Waste of time indeed. But hopefully other wise person can understand and proceed the path with very open mind.

The path is vast and wide, it is not narrow right what people imagine. But not too wide to become abhidhamma. It is just right indeed.
Pulsar
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Pulsar »

Abhidhamma got it wrong. But this person is totally clueless as well.
wrote Joe.c.
Thanks for admitting that Abhidhamma got it wrong? Wait a second though, are you saying that I am as clueless as Abhidhamma?
How can I be as clueless as Abhidhamma? Abhidhamma insists that rupa of Nama-rupa is a physicality, Pulsar insists that rupa of Nama-Rupa is a mentality, based on sutta.
Does Joe insist that both of the above are wrong?
Can the early strata of Suttas found in Samyutta nikaya too be wrong?
What is your understanding of rupa of Dependent Origination? Phena sutta insists that rupa is like bubbles of foam floating on the river Ganges. Can foam be substantial? Bubbles of foam come into being, rupture/explode and fade away, not even a fraction of a second's substantiality, just like the imagined sounds, tastes, visions or sensual impressions rise and fall away, making contacts, that too rise and fall away.
Happy Day! :candle:
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Coëmgenu
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Coëmgenu »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 12:02 am The translation of SĀ 747 is bizarre and incorrect. I can only assume a free Internet-based computer translation service is responsible for it, either Google Translate or DeepL.
Here is what is IMO a far better rendering of SĀ 747, the *Anityasūtra.
I heard it like this:

At one time, the Buddha dwelt in Śrāvastī at Anāthapiṇḍada’s park at Jetavana. At that time, the Bhagavān said to the many bhikṣus:

"If a bhikṣu cultivates the perception of impermanence, having cultivated much, he might attain great fruit and great benefit. How is it that the bhikṣu cultivates the perception of impermanence, having cultivated much, and attains great fruit and great benefit? This bhikṣu's words and thoughts are entirely concerning the perception of impermanence. He cultivates the smṛti of the bodhyaṅgas (which is) dependent upon detachment, dependent upon dispassion, dependent upon cessation, tending toward equanimity; and he even attains equanimity with regards to the bodhyaṅgas (which is) dependent upon detachment, dependent upon dispassion, dependent upon cessation, (and is) tending toward equanimity."

When the Buddha spoke these words, the many bhikṣus heard the Buddha, and joyfully they practiced.

Like these are the perceptions of impermanence: like the perception of impermanence of suffering, like the perception of suffering of anātman, like the perception of observing nutriment, like the perception of all the world as impossible to enjoy, like the perception of the utmost, like the perception of abandoning, like the perception of dispassion, like the perception of cessation, like the perception of being subject to calamity, like the perception of the impure, like the perception of the mottled blue (of a corpse), like the perception of the flowing pus (of a corpse), like the perception of the expansive swelling (of a corpse), like the perception of the spoilage (of a corpse), like the perception of the not yet completely devoured (corpse), like the perception of the bloody (corpse), like the perception of the torn (corpse), like the perception of the bones (of the corpse), like the perception of emptiness. One by one, the sūtra is as spoken above.
Instead of as was the case with your rather dodgy and incorrect conclusions around SĀ 814 and SĀ 549, where you ignored the expansions to the sūtra, here it seems you have simply mistranslated them, lacking the necessary context to know what the text was talking about. It was either you or some other unnamed source. I invite CD Patton to critique this, as he is more advanced than I in his knowledge surrounding this sort of task and I am yet-still an amateur by my own reckoning, and will tag him.
cdpatton wrote:
"Equanimity with regards to" I found difficult. Is that at all justified? It looks like "equanimity (of/and) the bodhyaṅgas." That's obvious not right, IMO.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sat May 21, 2022 12:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
I heard it from a friend who heard it from a guy just before last call at the Publican House: Thomas the Bodhi-Wizard abode at Osmow's. Seeing a patron heading to the bathroom, Thomas quickly moved to relieve the man of his selfishly undonated plate. Caught, he spoke:

"'It's yours' is an extreme. 'It's mine' is another.
The Bodhi-Wizard splits the shawarma down the middle.
A sandwich arisen of causes and conditions
is a nonexistent sandwich.
A nonexistent sandwich is a designatory convenience.
This is the riddling way."


The man was awestruck.
Pulsar
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Pulsar »

Coemgenu wrote.... An excerpt from his translation, the point of contention.
like the perception of the impure, like the perception of the mottled blue , like the perception of the flowing pus , like the perception of the expansive swelling (of a corpse), like the perception of the spoilage (of a corpse), like the perception of the not yet completely devoured (corpse), like the perception of the bloody (corpse), like the perception of the torn (corpse), like the perception of the bones (of the corpse), like the perception of emptiness. One by one, the sūtra is as spoken above.
It would seem right without the word "corpse"
Was the word corpse a figment of your imagination? These are metaphors used in the sutta to refer to negative states of mind, as I said festering thoughts, bloody thoughts, pus leaking thoughts etc.. The point of the sutta:
it is not asking the meditator to contemplate on swollen bodies or bloody bodies. The point is to avoid the arising of thoughts of such nature, thoughts of violence, hatred, ill will and so forth. Sutra is referring to perceptions of such nature, but not literally, physical bodies of this nature.
This was my emphasis. But as long as people believe rupa in Nama-rupa is a physicality, it would be hard to convince those. What does the passage end in?
perception of emptiness
emptying the mind of all disturbing thoughts, not emptying the mind of bloated bodies.
How do SĀ 814 and SĀ 549, relate to this discussion? I do not recall bringing these suttas into the discussion. You wrote
Instead of as was the case with your rather dodgy and incorrect conclusions around SĀ 814 and SĀ 549
Can you bring me my translation of SA 814? and the dodgy and incorrect conclusions associated with it? How is that related to rotting bodies/thoughts of SA 747? Also can you fetch my translation of SA 549 the parallel of AN 10.26, so that I can be sure where I was dodgy? How are those suttas related to this particular discussion?
Happy Day! :candle:
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Coëmgenu
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Coëmgenu »

Pulsar wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 12:53 amIt would seem right without the word "corpse"
Whether it would "seem right" to you and whether it would be correct are two different things. These Chinese terms are translating terms to-do with corpse meditation that are largely congruent to the Pāli, despite your incorrect assertion that the āgamasūtra contains metaphors that are misinterpreted as literal by the Pāli tradition.
Pulsar wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 12:53 amWas the word corpse a figment of your imagination?
A torn corpse is what "the torn" refers to. The bloating of a bloated corpse is what the "expansive swelling" refers to. Hence the parentheses.

A lot of your confusion revolves around you translating "-想" as "thoughts of-." This is translating an Indic compound, namely "-saññā." It is not simply a thought of anything. It's not "aren't the bones interesting?" It is a perception of the bones. Also, you are translating "-saññā" as "thoughts," but it does not say "-saññāyo." So there's no reason I can see with my amateur Pali as to why you should be reading "-想" as the overly-general "thoughts of-." Perhaps you are confusing modern Chinese with classical Buddhist literary Chinese?
Pulsar wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 12:53 amThese are metaphors used in the sutta to refer to negative states of mind, as I said festering thoughts, bloody thoughts, pus leaking thoughts etc..
But this is incorrect. These are specific perceptions, not just any which sundry "festering thoughts." It is the "perception of the festering," or the "thought of the festering," or the "idea of the festering." "The festering" is a "festering something" here. It refers to "that which festers." In this case, a decomposing corpse. The same with "the torn." It is "that which is torn." It is not simply "thoughts that are torn." That is a completely wrong way to read the compound.

Pulsar wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 12:53 am
perception of emptiness
emptying the mind of all disturbing thoughts, not emptying the mind of bloated bodies.
How do SĀ 814 and SĀ 549, relate to this discussion? I do not recall bringing these suttas into the discussion. You wrote
Instead of as was the case with your rather dodgy and incorrect conclusions around SĀ 814
Can you bring me my translation of SA 814? and the dodgy and incorrect conclusions associated with it? How is that related to rotting bodies/thoughts of SA 747?
Happy Day! :candle:
I've already corrected a false claim from you that "Pali compilers do a switcheroo on it. SN 54.8 Pali version, packs in the 4 arupas not found in the agama version" here. It was a completely wrong statement, as SĀ 814 has those same arūpya samāpattis listed.
Pulsar wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 12:53 amAlso can you fetch my translation of SA 549 the parallel of AN 10.26, so that I can be sure where I was dodgy?
Apologies. This one wasn't a mistranslation of an āgama. Instead, it's a false claim about an āgama. They are linked in that you are either missing (in the case of SA 814 & SA 549) or misinterpreting (as in the case of SA 747) the relevant expansions indicated at the close of the āgama text. This causes you to make false statments about the contents of these texts. In the relevant section, you make the claim:
Pulsar wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:47 pmThe agama parallel SA 899 is such a short and simple sutta, from which Pali compilers derived 10 different suttas, by partitioning one sutta separately into, Eye, Forms, consciousness, Contact, Feeling, Perception, Volition, Craving, ELEMENTS, Aggregates.
I corrected you, having read the text, and told you that the āgamasūtra has an unspecified number of expansions. At the end, it directs the reciter to expand it for the internal āyatanas, the external āyatanas, and then it says to continue "up to the five aggregates" (乃至五陰). It presumes that the reciter knows all of the relevant expansions. You'll notice that this sequence, 1) internal 2) external ... etc. up to the aggregates" is identical to the beginning and end of the fully-expanded recension of the Pāli sutta. You missed this clearly. Let me find SA 549. The search function on this forum is very poor.

EDIT: I figured out the confusion. It was SA 899, not SA 549. I misremembered which text the false claim was being made about. In this case, the false claim was that the dhātus were absent from the listing of SA 899. This was because you did not consider the expansions listed at the end when you said "You can see how by including the Elements (A major Snafu) earth, air, water, and air into the same category as eye. forms, consciousness arising etc, they tinkered with the teaching." All of the available evidence points to these being in the original sequence of expansions for SA 899, not "added in" by Theravadins.
I heard it from a friend who heard it from a guy just before last call at the Publican House: Thomas the Bodhi-Wizard abode at Osmow's. Seeing a patron heading to the bathroom, Thomas quickly moved to relieve the man of his selfishly undonated plate. Caught, he spoke:

"'It's yours' is an extreme. 'It's mine' is another.
The Bodhi-Wizard splits the shawarma down the middle.
A sandwich arisen of causes and conditions
is a nonexistent sandwich.
A nonexistent sandwich is a designatory convenience.
This is the riddling way."


The man was awestruck.
Joe.c
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Joe.c »

Pulsar wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 12:53 am emptying the mind of all disturbing thoughts, not emptying the mind of bloated bodies.
This is the reason why people insist on rise and fall only. Instead it should be stopping so nothing can’t arise in future due to wisdom.

Teaching of buddha is about replacing bad with good by wisdom. Hence there is a wisdom to guard the mind. But wisdom can only arise because of repeating practice. See how Sariputta describe it on SN 47.12:
Suppose there was a king’s frontier citadel with fortified embankments, ramparts, and arches, and a single gate. And it has a gatekeeper who is astute, competent, and intelligent. He keeps strangers out and lets known people in. As he walks around the patrol path, he doesn’t see a hole or cleft in the wall, not even one big enough for a cat to slip out. He thinks, ‘Whatever sizable creatures enter or leave the citadel, all of them do so via this gate.’
Gatekeeper here means panna (wisdom).

If one is just emptying the mind From bad stuff, but didn’t replace it with good stuff. There is no wisdom hence one can’t be freed. This is what people is missing. They keep insisting on observing rise and fall without wisdom.

Just look at how a person who has develop the asubha sanna. Instead of looking at a beautiful girl, they look at the girl as a skeleton or bloated corpse. They will repel/disgust by the girl. They grew disillusioned with the body (own or other bodies) hence their mind can be freed.

Also once a person in jhana due to the perception that buddha taught. They have these 5 powers (fruits) described in many sutta.

1. If they wish: ‘May I dwell perceiving the repulsive in the unrepulsive,’ that’s what they do. (See girl like seeing a corpse so repel by it)
2. If they wish: ‘May I dwell perceiving the unrepulsive in the repulsive,’ that’s what they do. (See a 💩 like see a dirt/earth element so no repel by it)
3. If they wish: ‘May I dwell perceiving the repulsive in the unrepulsive and the repulsive,’ that’s what they do. (See a girl like seeing a girl and a corpse)
4. If they wish: ‘May I dwell perceiving the unrepulsive in the repulsive and the unrepulsive,’ that’s what they do. (See a 💩 like see a 💩 and a dirt/earth element)
5. If they wish: ‘May I dwell staying equanimous, sati and sampajjana, rejecting both the repulsive and the unrepulsive,’ that’s what they do. (Or just equanimous with whatever happen in the world)

Mind in jhana is mind with great wisdom, widespread wisdom, laughing wisdom, swift wisdom, sharp wisdom, penetrating wisdom, As SN 8.7 described.

Anyway i have enough. Hopefully one gets it otherwise what a waste of time.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pulsar wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:45 pm
Last I checked
Samma sati and Samma samadhi fall under Samadhi
of the 8-fold path. 8 fold path has 3 aggregates, Sila, Samadhi and Panna. SN 47.42 on Origination explains the sort of meditation required to bring DO to a halt. SN 47.42 does not mention corpses, and festering bodies, and does not expect the aspirant to meditate on earth, air, fire and water, but just the images, sounds, tastes, etc derived from those.
The 4 Jhāna are deep states of concentration born from practicing a certain meditation. They aren't meditation objects themselves. Regarding SN 47.42, it's not a meditation itself per se. It's discussing the origination of the 4 Satipaṭṭhāna. You could argue that it is something to be meditated upon, but I would say only after (or within) Jhāna. Certainly the 4 elements would form part of the first Satipaṭṭhāna. Incidentally, do you totally reject mindfulness of breathing to?
The point of 8-fold path is to bring mental or emotional suffering to an end. I have not seen this kind of meditation discussed in Abhidhamma. And it is impossible the methods of meditation discussed under abhidhamma will fit the meditation proposed by the 8-fold path.
This isn't correct. Whilst bringing mental and emotional suffering to an end is a big part of the path, it's not the whole of it. The aim is to be totally free from mental and physical dukkha, including bodily pain. By focusing on the mental side of existence to the exclusion of the physical, I think you are getting a lopsided view of reality. As for the Abhidhamma and Ābhidhammikas, they are aiming for escape from all forms of dukkha. I'm not really aware of the Ābhidhammikas inventing new methods of meditation. Well, perhaps the "insight only" approach and how elemental meditation is done.
In abhidhamma rupa of Nama-rupa is described as a physical factor, whereas in the 8-fold path designed to bring Dependent origination to a halt, Buddha defines rupa of Nama-rupa as a world phenomenon. I have already introduced a sutta from Samyutta Nikaya to support this, so I feel there is no need to repeat this. You can scroll back and check.
As has been explained to you, rūpa in nāmarūpa includes the physical. The 4 mahābhūta are the physical and tangible "stuff" out of which we are made, according to the common worldview at the time.
“Mendicants, I do not see a single thing that, when it’s not tamed, is so very harmful as the mind. A wild mind is very harmful.”

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cdpatton
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by cdpatton »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 11:02 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 12:02 am The translation of SĀ 747 is bizarre and incorrect. I can only assume a free Internet-based computer translation service is responsible for it, either Google Translate or DeepL.
Here is what is IMO a far better rendering of SĀ 747, the *Anityasūtra.
I heard it like this:

At one time, the Buddha dwelt in Śrāvastī at Anāthapiṇḍada’s park at Jetavana. At that time, the Bhagavān said to the many bhikṣus:

"If a bhikṣu cultivates the perception of impermanence, having cultivated much, he might attain great fruit and great benefit. How is it that the bhikṣu cultivates the perception of impermanence, having cultivated much, and attains great fruit and great benefit? This bhikṣu's words and thoughts are entirely concerning the perception of impermanence. He cultivates the smṛti of the bodhyaṅgas (which is) dependent upon detachment, dependent upon dispassion, dependent upon cessation, tending toward equanimity; and he even attains equanimity with regards to the bodhyaṅgas (which is) dependent upon detachment, dependent upon dispassion, dependent upon cessation, (and is) tending toward equanimity."

When the Buddha spoke these words, the many bhikṣus heard the Buddha, and joyfully they practiced.

Like these are the perceptions of impermanence: like the perception of impermanence of suffering, like the perception of suffering of anātman, like the perception of observing nutriment, like the perception of all the world as impossible to enjoy, like the perception of the utmost, like the perception of abandoning, like the perception of dispassion, like the perception of cessation, like the perception of being subject to calamity, like the perception of the impure, like the perception of the mottled blue (of a corpse), like the perception of the flowing pus (of a corpse), like the perception of the expansive swelling (of a corpse), like the perception of the spoilage (of a corpse), like the perception of the not yet completely devoured (corpse), like the perception of the bloody (corpse), like the perception of the torn (corpse), like the perception of the bones (of the corpse), like the perception of emptiness. One by one, the sūtra is as spoken above.
Instead of as was the case with your rather dodgy and incorrect conclusions around SĀ 814 and SĀ 549, where you ignored the expansions to the sūtra, here it seems you have simply mistranslated them, lacking the necessary context to know what the text was talking about. It was either you or some other unnamed source. I invite CD Patton to critique this, as he is more advanced than I in his knowledge surrounding this sort of task and I am yet-still an amateur by my own reckoning, and will tag him.
cdpatton wrote:
"Equanimity with regards to" I found difficult. Is that at all justified? It looks like "equanimity (of/and) the bodhyaṅgas." That's obvious not right, IMO.
I don't have much to add other than some word-choice quibbles that aren't worth wrangling over. For instance, why insert "might" into the opening passage? It's a straightforward assertion to me: "Cultivate this often/much, and one will attain a great reward" (to paraphrase).

You rendered 向於捨 well enough. 向 means a heading or facing (often implying moving in a given direction like "headed for" in English), and 於 is a locative preposition or indicates a verb's object for clarity.

乃至 very often functions like "..." in English, indicating an abbreviated list, as here it indicates items 2-6 have been skipped over to save paper.

In the list of variant sutras, I would translate it as: "Like the perception of impermanence, thus are the perception of the suffering of impermanence, perception of the selflessness of suffering," etc.

I would look at Indic parallels to figure out how to translate those perceptions, but generally speaking Buddhist Chinese puts subordinate nouns in front of main nouns. So, 無常苦 = suffering of impermanence. The tricky thing, of course, is telling whether a compound like this represents a pair of nouns or an adjective modifying a noun. Buddhist Chinese translators often skip the grammar particles that would communicate such things to the reader because they are translating Indic compounds literally. Thus, we often have to look at Indic parallels to know for sure what was intended.

Looks like there are 19 variants to that sutras.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Coëmgenu »

cdpatton wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 4:47 pmFor instance, why insert "might" into the opening passage?
Perhaps I was reading too much conditionality into the 若. I figured it was a matter of "if/can" instead of "if/than," since there's no guarantee that if a disciple has "practiced much" he will necessarily have an attainment. Perhaps that's not justified in the root text.
I heard it from a friend who heard it from a guy just before last call at the Publican House: Thomas the Bodhi-Wizard abode at Osmow's. Seeing a patron heading to the bathroom, Thomas quickly moved to relieve the man of his selfishly undonated plate. Caught, he spoke:

"'It's yours' is an extreme. 'It's mine' is another.
The Bodhi-Wizard splits the shawarma down the middle.
A sandwich arisen of causes and conditions
is a nonexistent sandwich.
A nonexistent sandwich is a designatory convenience.
This is the riddling way."


The man was awestruck.
cdpatton
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by cdpatton »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 5:54 pm
cdpatton wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 4:47 pmFor instance, why insert "might" into the opening passage?
Perhaps I was reading too much conditionality into the 若. I figured it was a matter of "if/can" instead of "if/than," since there's no guarantee that if a disciple has "practiced much" he will necessarily have an attainment. Perhaps that's not justified in the root text.
Okay, yeah. I'd expect to see an auxiliary verb if the author feels it's important. But this is why there's so much variety in translations of classical Chinese. It's not a precise language around the periphery of the main point. The writer says the important things and leaves the rest to the reader's discretion. It's like giving a person an address instead of specific directions. You can often get there several ways, but if you end up in the wrong place, then you're lost.
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Pulsar »

cdpatton wrote
Okay, yeah. I'd expect to see an auxiliary verb if the author feels it's important. But this is why there's so much variety in translations of classical Chinese. It's not a precise language around the periphery of the main point. The writer says the important things and leaves the rest to the reader's discretion. It's like giving a person an address instead of specific directions. You can often get there several ways, but if you end up in the wrong place, then you're lost.
kudos to you, I have been convinced of this.
Those who believe Nama-rupa of DO are mentalities will interpret the agama suttas accordingly. Those who are hung up on abhidhamma will interpret metaphors Buddha used literally. For them rupa of Nama-rupa of DO will be an inflexible physical thing.
Buddha never meant this to be so.
By that simple tweaking at the first step of Origination of suffering an entire dispensation can be presented contrary to what the founder intended.
In SN 22.94 Buddha says
And what is that world phenomenon in the world to which the Tathagata has awakened to and broken through?
  • Form bhikkhus is a world phenomenon in the world to which the Tathagata has awakened and broken through
Regards :candle:
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Coëmgenu
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Coëmgenu »

Unfortunately, the notion that metaphors from the Saṃyuktāgama are incorrectly interpreted as literal by Theravādin Ābhidhammikas is completely wrong. It is a mistake born of mistranslating "-saññā" compounds in the plural, as well as of an apparent aversion to meditation upon death inasmuch as it pertains to the body.
I heard it from a friend who heard it from a guy just before last call at the Publican House: Thomas the Bodhi-Wizard abode at Osmow's. Seeing a patron heading to the bathroom, Thomas quickly moved to relieve the man of his selfishly undonated plate. Caught, he spoke:

"'It's yours' is an extreme. 'It's mine' is another.
The Bodhi-Wizard splits the shawarma down the middle.
A sandwich arisen of causes and conditions
is a nonexistent sandwich.
A nonexistent sandwich is a designatory convenience.
This is the riddling way."


The man was awestruck.
wenjaforever
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by wenjaforever »

Suttas are mostly discourses revealed by the Buddha himself. Except the 5th part it's more like poems and songs dedicated to praise the Buddha. While abhidhamma are commentaries compiled later on from monks and Sutta experts explaining Buddha's words further to be easier understood.
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Ontheway
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Ontheway »

Abhidhamma was preached by the Sammasambuddha in the Tavatimsa Heaven, attended by Māyādevaputta and Tavatimsa Devas. Together with Brahmas l many others and Catumaharajikā Devas.
One may conquer in battle a thousand times a thousand men, yet he is the best of conquerors who conquers himself.

- Dhammapada
thomaslaw
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by thomaslaw »

Ontheway wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 11:06 am Abhidhamma was preached by the Sammasambuddha in the Tavatimsa Heaven, attended by Māyādevaputta and Tavatimsa Devas. Together with Brahmas l many others and Catumaharajikā Devas.
Do you know which version of the Abhidhamma?

I visited the place Shravasti (Sravasti) where the Buddha preformed the Yamakapratiharya or the "twin miracle".

Following the miracle, the Buddha is said to have ascended to Tavatimsa Heaven for three months to spend his rains-retreat and teach his deceased mother the Abhidhamma.

But I do not know for sure which Abhidhamma text? :thinking:
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