Reincarnation was not taught by the Buddha

[Cause_and_Effect]

The analogy of the candle should be understood correctly. One flame conditions the arising of the next. However unlike an actual candle, for rebecoming the next candle only lights up when the first extinguishes.

There is always a locus of experience and witnessing from life to life to liberation. The various internal and external conditions that arise and cease around this can change.

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

Find somewhere the soul is denied

“Sabbe dhammā anattā”ti, yadā paññāya passati.
Atha nibbindati dukkhe, esa maggo visuddhiyā.

“‘All phenomena are not-self:’ when one sees this with wisdom,
one is disgusted with suffering; this is the path to purity.” (Dhammapada verse 279)

[cappuccino]

Find somewhere the soul is denied

All phenomena are not-self

That’s not a denial of soul


I’m not affirming soul either

[bpallister]

Greetings,

explained here around 40:10 by Ajahn Sona:

It's a pretty stock-standard Theravada description, and thus no real surprise.

So what is the purpose of this topic exactly, bpallister?

Metta,
Paul.

just wanted some pleasant discussion on the non-Buddhist topic of "reincarnation."

[bpallister]

To most householders, villagers, village leaders and so on the Buddha was teaching reincarnation. For those who had potential, he taught dependent origination. Based on craving, clinging. Based on clinging, birth and death.

wouldn't reincarnation imply a "soul?"

That’s how they would think of it, yes.

Do you think I have potential?

[Ceisiwr]

wouldn't reincarnation imply a "soul?"

That’s how they would think of it, yes.

Do you think I have potential?

Well of course I’m not a Buddha but IMO, based on my interactions, yes.

[wenjaforever]

The sole purpose of Buddhism is literally to end reincarnation

[bpallister]

The sole purpose of Buddhism is literally to end reincarnation

what about births in non-human realms? is ending those not a goal of Buddhism??

[wenjaforever]

what about births in non-human realms? is ending those not a goal of Buddhism??

I don't understand your question. If you have a low karma you can be born as animals or peta. Some petas even live in hell tortured by asuras. But to escape reincarnation you have to go beyond 4th arupa jhana.

The age of mahabrahma is 1 kalpa. The age of bakabrahma is 8 kalpas. The age of mara is 1/8 kalpa. The age of subhakina devas are 64 kalpas. The age of akanitha devas are 512 kalpas. The age of 4th arupa jhana dwellers are 2 million kalpas.

[bpallister]

but reincarnation is taking birth as a human

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/reincarnation

[santa100]

But to escape reincarnation you have to go beyond 4th arupa jhana.

Not necessarily. That's why the Buddha taught the Seven types of noble disciples in MN 70, including what's called the white-lotus vs. the red-lotus ascetics, who have different levels of jhanic attainments.

[DNS]

but reincarnation is taking birth as a human

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/reincarnation

If that is what the definition is saying, then it is a very bad definition. All Dharmic religions include animals, heavenly realms, hell realms, among others, as potential places of reincarnation or rebirth, including Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism.

There might be a few New Age movements that say human only, but they are not Buddhism, nor very Dharmic.

[Ontheway]

Rebirth is true.

Reincarnation or transmigration isn't the right term.

[Coëmgenu]

Transmigration is difficult because the same consciousness doesn't go to-and-fro.

Reincarnation, "re-enfleshment," can be fine, but the arūpya devas are not fleshly and are not carnal.

Rebirth is best, but the other two can be used so long as it is understood that there is no transmigratory Ātman or Jīva or Kāya or Sattva or Pudgala in the Dharma.

IMO.

[Pondera]

Transmigration is difficult because the same consciousness doesn't go to-and-fro.

Reincarnation, "re-enfleshment," can be fine, but the arūpya devas are not fleshly and are not carnal.

Rebirth is best, but the other two can be used so long as it is understood that there is no transmigratory Ātman or Jīva or Kāya or Sattva or Pudgala in the Dharma.

IMO.

If you’re not there to experience the rebirth, then how is rebirth a source of suffering for the one who has expired?