asammūḷho kālaṁ karoti

[mjaviem]

Nimitta can also mean "cause", so "Piyaṁ nimittaṁ" can mean "pleasing foundation", as in giving attention to something that gives rise to being pleased. A similar meaning to giving attention to a "pleasing sign", although "sign" there isn't too clear. It's more Buddhist-Hybrid-English IMO. Then again "pleasing foundation" probably is BHE too.

To me sign is very clear and appropriate. The arising of suffering has to do with grasping the meanings, the signs, the representations, without seeing things in a correct way.

And back to piya:

...
“Having seen a form with mindfulness muddled,
Attending to the pleasing sign,
One experiences it with infatuated mind
And remains tightly holding to it.
...

vs

“Having seen a form with mindfulness muddled,
Attending to the sign of a dear thing,
One experiences it with infatuated mind
And remains tightly holding to it.

[Sam Vara]

I suppose there might be some subtlety to the phrase kālaṁ karoti which gives it a meaning different to "he dies". But I can't discern it, I'm afraid, and when I see the term routinely and repeatedly associated with cemeteries, grieving, end of life, time of death, etc., then I'm going to favour the obvious option. Nor can I see how one can "make" or "do" an adjective, which is what kāla is. I think there would need to be a noun in there for it to make grammatical sense.

In any case, I think you understand if I complain there is no alternative, more literal translations to compare with these ones, Sujatos's as one of the extreme ones, to make up our understanding of the Buddha's teaching.

Sure, I can understand why Sujato's translations are not to everyone's taste, but in his case one knows what one is getting. But I'm not sure that a more literal translation of an idiom helps clarify matters.

[Coëmgenu]

I don't think Ven Sujāto is being particularly idiosyncratic in his rendering of this term for dying. In other places, certainly, his renderings are idiomatic. "Choices" for saṃskārā and "placing the mind and keeping it connected," or something like that, for vitarkavicāra. Also, "solar-system" for lokadhātu IMO is very misconceived. But here he isn't off-the-wall in the least IMO.

[mjaviem]

I don't think Ven Sujāto is being particularly idiosyncratic in his rendering of this term for dying. In other places, certainly, his renderings are idiomatic. "Choices" for saṃskārā and "placing the mind and keeping it connected," or something like that, for vitarkavicāra. Also, "solar-system" for lokadhātu IMO is very misconceived. But here he isn't off-the-wall in the least IMO.

Yes, "to die" instead of "to make one's time" is found in all the translations I've checked (Thanissaro, Bodhi, Sujato)

I wanted to say that there are translations that are very little objective as those of ven. Sujato as an example. I wanted to say that I prefer to read "made his time" because it is understandable and more objective.

[Coëmgenu]

The problem is, "made his time" means something very different in English than what "kālaṁ karoti" means in Pāli. "Made his time," in English, can have an extreme variety of meanings, because it's not a standard expression. "Made his time" in Pāli means one specific thing.

[mjaviem]

The problem is, "made his time" means something very different in English than what "kālaṁ karoti" means in Pāli. "Made his time," in English, can have an extreme variety of meanings, because it's not a standard expression. "Made his time" in Pāli means one specific thing.

And 2500 years later we know there are no nuances with this idiom (or whatever other idiom we could be discussing)

[Coëmgenu]

If you have reason to suggest that there is a particular nuance aside from "death," you are invited to present it. Otherwise, it's a cut-and-dried case, as far as I see things. Do you see the idiom used in any other way, or in a way that would suggest a different nuance to its meaning?

[mjaviem]

If you have reason to suggest that there is a particular nuance aside from "death," you are invited to present it. Otherwise, it's a cut-and-dried case, as far as I see things. Do you see the idiom used in any other way, or in a way that would suggest a different nuance to its meaning?

No and I guess we will never have the opportunity to find nuances with this well made although subjective kind of translations.

[Coëmgenu]

What about this specific translation of "kālaṁ karoti" do you feel is exceptionally subjective? It seems reasonably well-established as to be functionally considered objectively correct to me. Is not all translation subjective?

[mjaviem]

What about this specific translation of "kālaṁ karoti" do you feel is exceptionally subjective? It seems reasonably well-established as to be functionally considered objectively correct to me. Is not all translation subjective?

What I feel about it? That it's not conveying the full meaning but as in the OP, who am I to question this meaning.

All translation is subjective, that's why I don't trust fully when I read awkward sentences.

[Coëmgenu]

buddhaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi
"To the Buddha for refuge I go."
"I go to the Buddha for refuge."
"For refuge, I go to the Buddha."
"I go for refuge to the Buddha."

Etc., etc. There are more permutations you can do. Only the first follows the word order of the Pāli, but it's not the most natural English rendering. Usually, an English speaker would put "I go" at the beginning of his sentence. S-V-O, "subject, verb, object." It's the general pattern with English. You probably meant more tortured, and perhaps even ungrammatical, translations though that you were wary of.

[Joe.c]

For me, it just means:

asammūḷho kālaṁ karoti = not confused at time of doing something (action).

I suggest look at various sutta of this term usage, then one can get better understanding. I don't think it has something to do with someone is dying.

[Sam Vara]

For me, it just means:

asammūḷho kālaṁ karoti = not confused at time of doing something (action).

I suggest look at various sutta of this term usage, then one can get better understanding. I don't think it has something to do with someone is dying.

If you check out my posts above, you'll see that I do indeed look at various suttas to get a better understanding. Many of them refer to grieving and lamenting for the person who does this, and placing them in cemeteries. So it's difficult to see how it could mean "not confused at the time of doing something", rather than "dies". If you did the same with the English phrase "passed away", you would find exactly the same. You could rely on an uncontextualised dictionary definition, and think that the phrase mean that the person gave something to someone far from them. But if you looked at how people actually use the phrase, it always means "dies".

[Coëmgenu]

For me, it just means:

asammūḷho kālaṁ karoti = not confused at time of doing something (action).

I suggest look at various sutta of this term usage, then one can get better understanding. I don't think it has something to do with someone is dying.

You've twisted "karoti" into some kind of possessive gerundative. Karoti is a verb conjugated for the third person: "(s)he makes." It's not "making/doing." You need to learn more Pāli before making up stuff like the above.

[mjaviem]

You've twisted "karoti" into some kind of possessive gerundative. Karoti is a verb conjugated for the third person: "(s)he makes." It's not "making/doing." You need to learn more Pāli before making up stuff like the above.

He wasn't translating, he was explaining one possible meaning one could get by simply reading the pali sentence literally (without context and without reading its use in other contexts).