Do you really exist over time?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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tharpa
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Do you really exist over time?

Post by tharpa »

https://rychappell.substack.com/p/do-yo ... -over-time

Though the author (Chappell) at the link above isn't Buddhist, I suspect that modern academic philosophy was influenced by Buddhism. I believe that the Buddha was the first or one of the first major "philosophers" to assert that the self isn't real. I don't necessarily agree with all of Chappell's assertions, but he raises some interesting questions.

"Parfit argues that we do not endure, or exist through time, in quite the way that we ordinarily suppose. "
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cappuccino
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Re: Do you really exist over time?

Post by cappuccino »

tharpa wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:50 am I believe that the Buddha was the first or one of the first major "philosophers" to assert that the self isn't real.
Buddha is the one who asserted not self


Rather than self… no self
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Re: Do you really exist over time?

Post by cappuccino »

tharpa wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:50 am Parfit argues that we do not endure, or exist through time, in quite the way that we ordinarily suppose.
People think of themselves as the same person


Same as ever…


Buddha taught we are completely different
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tharpa
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Re: Do you really exist over time?

Post by tharpa »

cappuccino wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 3:20 am
tharpa wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:50 am I believe that the Buddha was the first or one of the first major "philosophers" to assert that the self isn't real.
Buddha is the one who asserted not self


Rather than self… no self
You say that as if you think it disagrees with what I said.
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Re: Do you really exist over time?

Post by cappuccino »

tharpa wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 3:35 am You say that as if you think it disagrees with what I said.
Saying the self does not exist is not Buddhism


Even though most Buddhists say so
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tharpa
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Re: Do you really exist over time?

Post by tharpa »

cappuccino wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 3:37 am
tharpa wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 3:35 am You say that as if you think it disagrees with what I said.
Saying the self does not exist is not Buddhism


Even though most Buddhists say so
And did I say that it doesn't exist? No, I said it isn't real.
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Re: Do you really exist over time?

Post by cappuccino »

tharpa wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 3:38 am And did I say that it doesn't exist? No, I said it isn't real.
Things that are not real do not exist
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Re: Do you really exist over time?

Post by tharpa »

cappuccino wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 3:39 am
tharpa wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 3:38 am And did I say that it doesn't exist? No, I said it isn't real.
Things that are not real do not exist
Did the Buddha ever split the hair that you are splitting?
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Re: Do you really exist over time?

Post by cappuccino »

tharpa wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 3:41 am Did the Buddha ever split the hair that you are splitting?
Yes…

Ananda Sutta: To Ananda

(On Self, No Self, and Not-self)
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Re: Do you really exist over time?

Post by tharpa »

cappuccino wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 3:42 am Yes…

Ananda Sutta: To Ananda

(On Self, No Self, and Not-self)
"being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those brahmans & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism [the view that death is the annihilation of consciousness]"

It's funny in a way, because the sentence is incorrect, or at least the parenthetical part. If death is the annihilation of self, then it presupposes a self. If there is (present tense) no self, then there cannot be annihilation of the self at death. The parenthetical part of Ven. Thanissaro's translation also seems to be equating consciousness with the self, and we know from many suttas that that is not the case.
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Re: Do you really exist over time?

Post by cappuccino »

Buddha is trying not to imply annihilation


That’s all
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Re: Do you really exist over time?

Post by pegembara »

Of course. The "you" that ages with time exists.
But that which changes cannot be what you truly are, can it?

Are you still a baby?
Nor are you the old person in the future.

Were you there at your birth?
If not, you cannot truly say that you were born on such and such a date.
The only truthful thing to say is "I was told that I was born on ..."
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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tharpa
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Re: Do you really exist over time?

Post by tharpa »

cappuccino wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 3:50 am Buddha is trying not to imply annihilation


That’s all
No, that's not all. Whatever he was trying to imply, there is a logical error there.
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Re: Do you really exist over time?

Post by cappuccino »

tharpa wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 10:39 am No, that's not all. Whatever he was trying to imply, there is a logical error there.
:shrug:
Last edited by cappuccino on Thu May 26, 2022 12:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Do you really exist over time?

Post by Alino »

There is for paramattha dhammas:
Materiality
Cetasikas
Citta
Nibbana

Although Nibbana is permanent it is not our self. We can not say "my Nibbana" "his Nibbana" etc. It is not personal.

Nibbana is so subtile, profound and close that we dont see it, like we dont see a window glass while watching through. There is nothing "deeper" than Nibbana, so when the mind realises it, and understand its anatta, all fabricated phenomanes appear as gross and superficial, not me, not mine, not my self.
It is because of the very dept of Nibbana and of the very anatta of it that mind let go of all what is superficial and gross.

We can say that Nibbana is more close and intimate to "us" than 5 khandhas. So like a snake let go of old skin, mind let go of all what is gross, impermanent, unsatisfactory.

The way of Dhamma is the way from complications to simplicity. In order to find the ultimate simplicity we have to let go of all what is fabricated, composed, changing, unstable, unsatisfactory. For exemple if we experiance something and that we see its changing and pedendently arisen nature - we recognise is as not worthy of clinging, and go futher/deeper.

Imho
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
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