Revisiting Sāti the Fisherman's Son

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Post Reply
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17186
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Revisiting Sāti the Fisherman's Son

Post by DNS »

Bundokji wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 8:46 pm That would make anatta a view or a doctrine rather than an actuality. Sabbe dhamma anatta seem to imply that it is applicable whether one sees it or not. That would include sakkāya-ditthi.
Anatta is an actuality, correct, not a view.

Sakkāya-ditthi is a view, not an actuality.
Bundokji
Posts: 6494
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Revisiting Sāti the Fisherman's Son

Post by Bundokji »

DNS wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 8:49 pm Anatta is an actuality, correct, not a view.

Sakkāya-ditthi is a view, not an actuality.
One last question if i may: only views can be in opposite. If anatta is an actuality, then why it is often presented in opposite to Sakkāya-ditthi?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17186
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Revisiting Sāti the Fisherman's Son

Post by DNS »

Bundokji wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 8:53 pm
DNS wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 8:49 pm Anatta is an actuality, correct, not a view.

Sakkāya-ditthi is a view, not an actuality.
One last question if i may: only views can be in opposite. If anatta is an actuality, then why it is often presented in opposite to Sakkāya-ditthi?
Only views can have opposites? If that's the case, then maybe opposite was the wrong term, which I used.

Couldn't weightlessness in space be considered an opposite of gravity? Gravity is an actuality, at least on earth.
Bundokji
Posts: 6494
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Revisiting Sāti the Fisherman's Son

Post by Bundokji »

DNS wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 9:01 pm Couldn't weightlessness in space be considered an opposite of gravity? Gravity is an actuality, at least on earth.
Yes, but that would be two different realms where the laws of nature behave differently.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22382
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Revisiting Sāti the Fisherman's Son

Post by Ceisiwr »

DNS wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 9:01 pm Gravity is an actuality, at least on earth.
Wherever there is mass.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22382
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Revisiting Sāti the Fisherman's Son

Post by Ceisiwr »

Bundokji wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 9:06 pm
DNS wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 9:01 pm Couldn't weightlessness in space be considered an opposite of gravity? Gravity is an actuality, at least on earth.
Yes, but that would be two different realms where the laws of nature behave differently.
It’s the same law.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Bundokji
Posts: 6494
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Revisiting Sāti the Fisherman's Son

Post by Bundokji »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 9:19 pm It’s the same law.
Well, you could move to an area where a certain law is no longer applicable and still define nature in terms of law.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
wenjaforever
Posts: 390
Joined: Tue May 24, 2022 4:44 am

Re: Revisiting Sāti the Fisherman's Son

Post by wenjaforever »

I'd be offended too if someone pretended to understand what I'm saying, some people are just incredibly worthless because they're dumb, dishonest and shameless.
money is worthless toilet paper • the tongue has no bone (a person might say one thing but it cannot be further from the truth) • you cannot teach a goat math as in you cannot teach the dhamma to a dumb person
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19941
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Revisiting Sāti the Fisherman's Son

Post by mikenz66 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 1:50 pm Some who do not believe in truth refer to it as a "marketplace of ideas." If you don't like a fact, you can search in the marketplace for an "alternative fact." ....
Thanks for this analysis of how we can give a larger meaning to the Sati Incident...

:heart:
Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19941
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Revisiting Sāti the Fisherman's Son

Post by mikenz66 »

bkmudita wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 2:15 pm your thought about Viññāṇa dependent on Saṅkhāra could be fine, just that I would say all four kandhas are dependent on the rupa kandha, that's why they are khandas, they kind of attach to rupa at time of birth. viññāṇa as a kandha and is also the knowing faculty, but not the knower. I think that's where the mistake is.
The first sentence seems to imply that the khandhas are static "things", that have some sort of constancy. Feeling, perception, etc, are dynamic processes.
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.61

As for a knower outside of the khandhas, that is, obviously, a controversial issue, and you can find plenty of discussion about that here and elsewhere:
viewtopic.php?t=33643&start=15
viewtopic.php?p=100366#p100366

Going back to Sati:
mikenz66 wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:44 am Yes, that's what Ven Dhammanando said here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 20#p328676
Dhammanando wrote: It's uncontroversial that consciousness is involved with rebirth, just not in the way that Sāti thought it was. Bhante Sujato, as far as I know, doesn't subscribe to Sāti's view that one and same consciousness persists through time and undergoes rebirth. Quite the contrary in fact — in his blog he's at pains to repudiate the atman-like consciousness view that's so prevalent among monks in his tradition.
See these entries in Sujato's Blog:
On the Radiant Mind
Nibbana is not viññāṇa. Really, it just isn’t.

See this elaboration: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 60#p329417
:heart:
Mike
wenjaforever
Posts: 390
Joined: Tue May 24, 2022 4:44 am

Re: Revisiting Sāti the Fisherman's Son

Post by wenjaforever »

Proof is superior to logic. How do you know nukes exist if you never seen its explosion or have access to a military submarine? How do you know hell exist because I'm sure many people don't believe in it. Because it doesn't make sense at all. Why would anyone create a place with the sole purpose to torture souls? You can say anything pleasant and people can choose to believe it.
money is worthless toilet paper • the tongue has no bone (a person might say one thing but it cannot be further from the truth) • you cannot teach a goat math as in you cannot teach the dhamma to a dumb person
User avatar
bkmudita
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:50 pm

Re: Revisiting Sāti the Fisherman's Son

Post by bkmudita »

mikenz66 wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 10:53 pm
:heart:
Mike
Yes, I am aware of the controversy. And unfortunately we are on opposite sides on this controversy.
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19941
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Revisiting Sāti the Fisherman's Son

Post by mikenz66 »

bkmudita wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 12:35 am
mikenz66 wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 10:53 pm
:heart:
Mike
Yes, I am aware of the controversy. And unfortunately we are on opposite sides on this controversy.
I'm not sure if it's useful to think of "sides". My impression is that some of the disagreements come from overinterpreting the language and terms.

As I said I'm wary of turning terms that the Buddha used into "things". For example, the Buddha says:
A developed mind is very beneficial.”
Cittaṁ, bhikkhave, bhāvitaṁ mahato atthāya saṁvattatī”ti.
https://suttacentral.net/an1.21-30/en/s ... ript=latin
Does that mean that a "developed mind" is some object that one can locate, like the engine in a Formula 1 car? I don't believe so, but then, like everyone else posting here, I'm obviously a long way from being an Arahant...

:heart:
Mike
Joe.c
Posts: 1484
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:01 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: Revisiting Sāti the Fisherman's Son

Post by Joe.c »

Which consciousness, Sāti, is that?" [1]

"This speaker, this knower, lord, that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & evil actions."
I read some comments, but i think that is lot of confusion on MN 38.

This sutta is comparing between puthujjana (regular person wisdom) vs Buddha (supramundane fully awaken being wisdom). Of course Buddha admonished Sati.

Let me say from other point of view.

Sati thought vinnana move from one body to another body.

But Buddha fully understood vinnana can't stand alone, it arise due to other conditions as he taught from Paticca Samupada.

So avijja paccaya sankhara, sankhara paccaya vinnana, etc.

When you stop the sankhara especially from samma samadhi progression eventually vinnana also stop/cease. Etc...

Then, one will ask where is the vinnana? There is none as well as other chains.

... Vinnana arises due to sankhara and sankhara arises due to avijja, but all of these arise due to conditions.

When one stop avijja, then sankhara also stop. When one stop the sankhara, then the vinnana also stop, etc...

Then one can fully awaken (i.e. avijja turn to vijja), then vimutti due to final panna (wisdom).
Birth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence/becoming.
Note: if one can reach n'eva-saññā-n'āsaññāyatana or sanna vedayita nirodha, there is no vinnana there. Only when one comeback and down to Ākiñcaññāyatana, then one can aware nothingness. Or other lower jhana than nothingness sphere.

Therefore to know/see and penetrate 4NT is important, otherwise one can't turn the avijja to vijja. Even a little vijja (knowledge) is important to enter the stream.

Hence Buddha said to associate with ariya, hear their teaching and practice accordingly. Then one can have same wisdom as all ariya or Buddha.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
User avatar
bkmudita
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:50 pm

Re: Revisiting Sāti the Fisherman's Son

Post by bkmudita »

mikenz66 wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 2:56 am
I'm not sure if it's useful to think of "sides". My impression is that some of the disagreements come from overinterpreting the language and terms.

As I said I'm wary of turning terms that the Buddha used into "things". For example, the Buddha says:
A developed mind is very beneficial.”
Cittaṁ, bhikkhave, bhāvitaṁ mahato atthāya saṁvattatī”ti.
https://suttacentral.net/an1.21-30/en/s ... ript=latin
Does that mean that a "developed mind" is some object that one can locate, like the engine in a Formula 1 car? I don't believe so, but then, like everyone else posting here, I'm obviously a long way from being an Arahant...

:heart:
Mike
Let's say I will my mind into your mind, I read your thoughts, I may imprint some thoughts into your mind to change your perception of the world or yourself, change your habits and so on. In this process, I perceive my mind and your kind as force fields, and of course can locate them. Consciousness is just energy. When the mind is more developed, it has more strengths, bala.
Post Reply