Memory & momentariness

[Alex123]

Hello all.

According to Abhidhamma, cittas are instantaneous, and no two cittas arise at the same time.

How can one comprehend words then? One needs to be able to "connect" many moments together, and add corresponding concept to make sense even of one word. But previous moments don't exist anymore. How does it work according to Abhidhamma?

Thanks.

[robertk]

From Nyanponika Abhidhamma Studies: Researches in Buddhist Psychology

In order to understand
how “remembering” or “recognizing”, too, is implied
in every act of perception we should mention that
according to the deeply penetrative analysis of the
Abhidhamma the apparently simple act, for example,
of seeing a rose, is in reality a very complex
process composed of different phases, each consisting of numerous smaller combinations of conscious
processes (citta-vãthi) which again are made
up of several single moments of consciousness (cittakkhana)
following each other in a definite sequence
of diverse functions. Among these phases there is
one that connects the present perception of a rose
with a previous one, and there is another that
attaches to the present perception the name “rose”,
remembered from previous experience. Not only in
relation to similar experiences in a relatively distant
past, but also between those infinitesimally brief
single phases and successive processes the connecting
function of rudimentary “memory” must be
assumed to operate, because each phase and each
lesser successive state has to “remember” the previous
one — a process called by the later Abhidhammikas
“grasping the past” (atãta-ggahana). Finally,
the individual contributions of all those different
perceptual processes have to be remembered and
co-ordinated in order to form the final and complete
perception of a rose.

[User13866]

As far as i know, the instanteneous-momentary citta is not abhidhamma but a much later commentary interpretation.

Please show where the theravadin abhidhamma states that citta arises as one thing, exists for some time and ceases, even for a moment, and i will right there reject the abhidhamma.

If each citta arose & ceased as one thing before another arose & ceased as another thing, then you would have to be able to delineate a 'in between' the two as neither the end of the first nor the beginning of the second.

1st citta would be one end, 2nd citta would be another end, with something in the middle.

These ideas are logically flawed and are rediculous.

If you separate the two citta having delineated a difference, then from what did the 2nd citta originate? From nothing. And what became of the 1st citta? Nothing.

Extracting something from nothing and reducing something to nothing. It's non sensical and should be ridiculed.

Contact would have to arise in the beginning, persist in the middle and cease at the end for each citta.

This is directly contradicted by sutta.

Manocittavinnana arises as one thing & ceases as another.

what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Contact is one end, origination of contact is another end and a cessation of contact is the middle.

“Contact, mendicants, is one end. The origin of contact is the second end. The cessation of contact is the middle. And craving is the seamstress, for craving weaves one to being reborn in one state of existence or another. 
https://suttacentral.net/an6.61/en/suja ... ript=latin

The conditioned element changes as it persists

“Bhikkhus, there are these three characteristics that define the conditioned. What three? An arising is seen, a vanishing is seen, and its alteration while it persists is seen. These are the three characteristics that define the conditioned. https://suttacentral.net/an3.47/en/bodh ... ight=false

[Alex123]

As far as i know, the instanteneous momentary citta is not abhidhamma but a much later commentary interpretations.

My post was about Abhidhamma commentary because I would not have this question about Abhidhamma Pitaka.

[Jack19990101]

Hello all.

According to Abhidhamma, cittas are instantaneous, and no two cittas arise at the same time.

How can one comprehend words then? One needs to be able to "connect" many moments together, and add corresponding concept to make sense even of one word. But previous moments don't exist anymore. How does it work according to Abhidhamma?

Thanks.

The citta mentioned, is not thinking or sanna.
It is the citta as 3rd satipatthana establishment. it is not in the head, it is around the heart or chest.

[confusedlayman]

Createw diapassion

[pegembara]

Hello all.

According to Abhidhamma, cittas are instantaneous, and no two cittas arise at the same time.

How can one comprehend words then? One needs to be able to "connect" many moments together, and add corresponding concept to make sense even of one word. But previous moments don't exist anymore. How does it work according to Abhidhamma?

Thanks.

Not necessarily Abhidhamma, but can you have two or more thoughts or words at the same time in your experience? Or is it rather a series or string of words?

Or when you see a "face", do you see it all at once or is it rather a series of events like noticing the mouth, lips, nose, and eyes and then piecing them together?

[Alex123]

Not necessarily Abhidhamma, but can you have two or more thoughts or words at the same time in your experience? Or is it rather a series or string of words?

I cannot think two thoughts at the same instance. It is always one thought, then split second later, the next one.

When it comes to a single word, it might be a conscious memory that lasts as long as it takes to non-consciously string letters together & determine the meaning (non-conscious process).

Or when you see a "face", do you see it all at once or is it rather a series of events like noticing the mouth, lips, nose, and eyes and then piecing them together?

While it feels like "all at once". From what I understand, there is A LOT of non-conscious processing going on, with consciousness getting "the headline of the news".

[Jack19990101]

The view is not right.


There is no time outside citta. Time is internal element of khandas(sankhara, fabrication).
Don't think in a way time is ahead of citta.

[SteRo]

Hello all.

According to Abhidhamma, cittas are instantaneous, and no two cittas arise at the same time.

How can one comprehend words then? One needs to be able to "connect" many moments together, and add corresponding concept to make sense even of one word. But previous moments don't exist anymore. How does it work according to Abhidhamma?

Thanks.

If it were true that the cognitive contents of previous moments don't exist anymore then humans could not survive. So it is obvious that the abhidhamma only started with its speculative theory but did not carry it to a conclusive end.

[Jack19990101]

The minute details on how a word is perceived into meaning,
is to seek how a dream is made, how a castle in the sky is built.
Did I build the sky first then the castle, or other way around.

It is wrong direction. Perceiving a word is sankhara to be brought into cease.
Try to figure out minute details how a perception is put together, is to wash trash.
The direction is to discern a concept as a concept, staying away from being fascinated by it. As a mirage is a mirage.

We got to categorize all conventional items, processes into 5 khandas. To a point there is nothing left outside 5 khandas.

For example, a word is a concept, memory is sanna, plots are sankara, so on.
With 5 khandas everywhere and only 5 khandas everywhere, we can start to see them as dependently spontaneously entanglement with each others.

[Jack19990101]

Not even time is outside Khandas.

Re - time. There are concept of time, there are speed (fast or slow)
The speed is not entirely a concept, it is a direct discernment, a sensation.
Animal has judgement of speed yet no concept of time.

Speed goes to feeling, time goes to sanna.

I suspect when we talk about momentariness of citta, it points to the swiftness of it.
Citta arises with feeling, that would make sense.
But again, as to feeling is very subjective, vipaka bound, it can be a very leisurely event for some mind.
i.e. Citta of appreciation(i.e. to a cello solo), can be quite simmering dispersive arising, with no rush.

[Alex123]

Not even time is outside Khandas.

This is interesting to ponder. In which khandha does time belong there?
Without time, there cannot be anything.
It seems that past, future, and present exist in time, and thus as a result, with time machine it is possible to travel through it. So much for time being conceptual.

[Jack19990101]

Not even time is outside Khandas.

This is interesting to ponder. In which khandha does time belong there?
Without time, there cannot be anything.
It seems that past, future, and present exist in time, and thus as a result, with time machine it is possible to travel through it. So much for time being conceptual.

There is never past nor future.
Past is a construct arising at current moment, assigned an annotation of past.
same as future.
Past & future are both sankhara, more crudely, we could just take as made up stories.
Presence is peerless. Both past & future can only occur as a state arisen presently.

Re - time vs khandas. Time, like minute, hours, Mondays, are concept. Those are just names.
Time sequence - previous, now, next, is fabrication.

interest u a sutta - A single excellent attachment sutta.

[Alex123]

There is never past nor future.
Past is a construct arising at current moment, assigned an annotation of past.
same as future.

If it is possible (and current theoretical physics suggest it is) to travel in time, it means that those places have to exist. Also, today's present is a distant past for those living in the far future.

If it is possible to travel through time like through space, then it has to "exist".