Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Sam Vara
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Sam Vara »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:05 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:53 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:33 am
The point was that on a literal “only go by what’s directly mentioned in the suttas” kind of approach it’s not against the precepts to do heroin.
That's complete nonsense. Even with a literal interpretation the suttas mention to abstain from "wine, liquors and intoxicants that lead to heedlessness".

So intoxicants that cause heedlessness are mentioned which is broader than simply alcohol and obviously covers drugs Iike heroin.
A literal reading would get you this
Therein what is the precept that is abstaining from intoxicating beers, wines and spirits causing heedlessness? At the time when, in one abstaining from intoxicating beers, wines and spirits causing heedlessness, good consciousness characteristic of the plane of desire arises, accompanied by mental pleasure, associated with knowledge; that which at that time is contact,* exertion, non-wavering. This is called the precept that is abstaining from intoxicating beers, wines and spirits causing heedlessness.
https://suttacentral.net/vb14/en/thitti ... ight=false

Which is just about alcohol. Of course we all know that heroin is against the spirit of the 5th precept, and interpret it accordingly. This however is the antithesis of the OP’s fundamentalist and literalist “suttas are all you need” kind of approach. It’s a strange view IMO, that 2500 year old orally transmitted documents would contain every detail regarding the Buddha’s Dhamma.
Yes, the same applies to the precept regarding sexual misconduct. It's mainly about men refraining from going to certain classes of protected women. I can think of a whole lot of naughty fun that both sexes can have while taking a literalist view.
asahi
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by asahi »

PeterC86 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 5:08 am What self? Non-dual like Brahmanism?
Didnt you read the sutra !?

https://suttacentral.net/sa109/en/analayo

“How does he see the self as being in consciousness? That is, [he sees] bodily form as the self which dwells among consciousness, being surrounded by the [other aggregates] as its four limbs. [He sees] feeling … perception … formations as the self which dwells among consciousness, being surrounded by the [other aggregates] as its four limbs. This is called [seeing] the self as being in consciousness.

“In this way a noble disciple who has seen the four truths gains the fruit of right comprehension and abandons all wrong views, which will never arise again in the future.

“Whatever bodily form, whether past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, sublime or repugnant, far or near, he contemplates it taken together completely in this way:
“‘All of it is impermanent, all of it is dukkha, all of it is empty, all of it is not self, it should not be craved with delight, grasped or kept up. Feeling … perception … formations … consciousness is also like this, it should not be craved with delight, grasped or kept up.’
Peace is more precious than triumph
PeterC86
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by PeterC86 »

asahi wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 9:36 am
PeterC86 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 5:08 am What self? Non-dual like Brahmanism?
Didnt you read the sutra !?

https://suttacentral.net/sa109/en/analayo

“How does he see the self as being in consciousness? That is, [he sees] bodily form as the self which dwells among consciousness, being surrounded by the [other aggregates] as its four limbs. [He sees] feeling … perception … formations as the self which dwells among consciousness, being surrounded by the [other aggregates] as its four limbs. This is called [seeing] the self as being in consciousness.

“In this way a noble disciple who has seen the four truths gains the fruit of right comprehension and abandons all wrong views, which will never arise again in the future.

“Whatever bodily form, whether past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, sublime or repugnant, far or near, he contemplates it taken together completely in this way:
“‘All of it is impermanent, all of it is dukkha, all of it is empty, all of it is not self, it should not be craved with delight, grasped or kept up. Feeling … perception … formations … consciousness is also like this, it should not be craved with delight, grasped or kept up.’
I did, the kasinas are refuted as they lead to conceiving a self;
In this way he conceives of a self in relation to each of the kasiṇa s. This is called [seeing] bodily form as the self.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Coëmgenu »

PeterC86 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:46 amI did, the kasinas are refuted as they lead to conceiving a self;
In this way he conceives of a self in relation to each of the kasiṇa s. This is called [seeing] bodily form as the self.
That agamasutra only deals with wrong meditation involving the kasinas. Right meditation involving the kasinas is expounded in MN 77:
Again, Udāyin, I have proclaimed to my disciples the way to develop the ten kasiṇa bases. One contemplates the earth-kasiṇa above, below, and across, undivided and immeasurable. Another contemplates the water-kasiṇa…Another contemplates the fire-kasiṇa…Another contemplates the air-kasiṇa…Another contemplates the blue-kasiṇa…Another contemplates the yellow-kasiṇa…Another contemplates the red-kasiṇa…Another contemplates the white-kasiṇa…Another contemplates the space-kasiṇa…Another contemplates the consciousness-kasiṇa above, below, and across, undivided and immeasurable. And thereby many disciples of mine abide having reached the perfection and consummation of direct knowledge.
It's good to do a very thorough search before making a foolish statement like "kasinas are rejected." It only shows that you are not particularly familiar with the Buddha's words.

Returning to the agamas, in case anyone wants to claim that the kasinas are rejected or don't feature in the path as remembered by the ancestors of the Sarvastivadins, we have SĀ 549, wherein Venerable Mahākātyāyana gives advice to a certain woman named *Kāḷīkopāsikā (迦梨迦優婆夷):
"Dear Sister, there are those śramaṇas and Brahmins who say that the samāpatti of the totality of the earth is the highest. My sister, would you suppose that those śramaṇas and Brahmins are liberated in relation to the samāpatti of the totality of the earth by seeing the earth's origin, by seeing the drawbacks of it, by seeing the cessation of it, and by seeing the path to that cessation? Because of seeing the origin of it, because of seeing the drawbacks of it, because of seeing the cessation of it, and because of seeing the path to the cessation of it, one attains knowledge of the real via the mind. One is tranquil and free from confusion."
"Kasina" = "totality" here. This excerpt agrees with both MN 77 and SĀ 109. There is a right way and a wrong way to do these meditations.
At one time, Thomas the Bodhi-Wizard was teaching in the rosewood pavillion in the park by the Kmart. Summarizing, he concluded: "The gist is to be unconscious of conceptualizations." "What about the concept of 'concepts versus non-concepts?'" asked Frampton the Initiate. "Ooooh you think you're so clever," responded Thomas, "but when I was porking your mother last night, she achieved a non-dual gnostic bliss that transgresses the binaries of even your foolish question. Do not question the Bodhi-Wizard."

The students rejoiced.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:26 pm
PeterC86 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:46 amI did, the kasinas are refuted as they lead to conceiving a self;
In this way he conceives of a self in relation to each of the kasiṇa s. This is called [seeing] bodily form as the self.
That agamasutra only deals with wrong meditation involving the kasinas. Right meditation involving the kasinas is expounded in MN 77:
Again, Udāyin, I have proclaimed to my disciples the way to develop the ten kasiṇa bases. One contemplates the earth-kasiṇa above, below, and across, undivided and immeasurable. Another contemplates the water-kasiṇa…Another contemplates the fire-kasiṇa…Another contemplates the air-kasiṇa…Another contemplates the blue-kasiṇa…Another contemplates the yellow-kasiṇa…Another contemplates the red-kasiṇa…Another contemplates the white-kasiṇa…Another contemplates the space-kasiṇa…Another contemplates the consciousness-kasiṇa above, below, and across, undivided and immeasurable. And thereby many disciples of mine abide having reached the perfection and consummation of direct knowledge.
It's good to do a very thorough search before making a foolish statement like "kasinas are rejected." It only shows that you are not particularly familiar with the Buddha's words.

Returning to the agamas, in case anyone wants to claim that the kasinas are rejected or don't feature in the path as remembered by the ancestors of the Sarvastivadins, we have SĀ 549, wherein Venerable Mahākātyāyana gives advice to a certain woman named *Kāḷīkopāsikā (迦梨迦優婆夷):
"Dear Sister, there are those śramaṇas and Brahmins who say that the samāpatti of the totality of the earth is the highest. My sister, would you suppose that those śramaṇas and Brahmins are liberated in relation to the samāpatti of the totality of the earth by seeing the earth's origin, by seeing the drawbacks of it, by seeing the cessation of it, and by seeing the path to that cessation? Because of seeing the origin of it, because of seeing the drawbacks of it, because of seeing the cessation of it, and because of seeing the path to the cessation of it, one attains knowledge of the real via the mind. One is tranquil and free from confusion."
"Kasina" = "totality" here. This excerpt agrees with both MN 77 and SĀ 109. There is a right way and a wrong way to do these meditations.
Just like with Jhana, it’s how they are viewed which makes them right or wrong.
“Mendicants, I do not see a single thing that, when it’s not tamed, is so very harmful as the mind. A wild mind is very harmful.”

Adantavagga
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Alex123
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Alex123 »

atipattoh wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:57 am
You should not omit the text prior to your "right Jhāna".
“He dwells with his awareness not overcome by ill will… sloth & drowsiness… restlessness & anxiety… uncertainty, obsessed with uncertainty. He discerns the escape, as it has come to be, from uncertainty once it has arisen.
The question is, is "the escape" refer to rupajhana, or something else, that matches the 9th attainment of Progressive Cessations sutta?

The escape that you highlighted is escape from the 5 hindrances. 1st proper Jhana is one of them. What is the problem? I don't see how the sutta you have linked says anything different.
asahi
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by asahi »

PeterC86 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:46 am
https://suttacentral.net/sa109/en/analayo

“How does he see the self as being in consciousness? That is, [he sees] bodily form as the self which dwells among consciousness, being surrounded by the [other aggregates] as its four limbs. [He sees] feeling … perception … formations as the self which dwells among consciousness, being surrounded by the [other aggregates] as its four limbs. This is called [seeing] the self as being in consciousness.

“In this way a noble disciple who has seen the four truths gains the fruit of right comprehension and abandons all wrong views, which will never arise again in the future.

Whatever bodily form, whether past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, sublime or repugnant, far or near, he contemplates it taken together completely in this way:
“‘All of it is impermanent, all of it is dukkha, all of it is empty, all of it is not self, it should not be craved with delight, grasped or kept up. Feeling … perception … formations … consciousness is also like this, it should not be craved with delight, grasped or kept up
.’
Peace is more precious than triumph
PeterC86
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by PeterC86 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:26 pm
PeterC86 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:46 amI did, the kasinas are refuted as they lead to conceiving a self;
In this way he conceives of a self in relation to each of the kasiṇa s. This is called [seeing] bodily form as the self.
That agamasutra only deals with wrong meditation involving the kasinas.
No, it explains exactly what you do; identification with the kasinas happens.
Right meditation involving the kasinas is expounded in MN 77:
Again, Udāyin, I have proclaimed to my disciples the way to develop the ten kasiṇa bases. One contemplates the earth-kasiṇa above, below, and across, undivided and immeasurable. Another contemplates the water-kasiṇa…Another contemplates the fire-kasiṇa…Another contemplates the air-kasiṇa…Another contemplates the blue-kasiṇa…Another contemplates the yellow-kasiṇa…Another contemplates the red-kasiṇa…Another contemplates the white-kasiṇa…Another contemplates the space-kasiṇa…Another contemplates the consciousness-kasiṇa above, below, and across, undivided and immeasurable. And thereby many disciples of mine abide having reached the perfection and consummation of direct knowledge.
It's good to do a very thorough search before making a foolish statement like "kasinas are rejected." It only shows that you are not particularly familiar with the Buddha's words.

Returning to the agamas, in case anyone wants to claim that the kasinas are rejected or don't feature in the path as remembered by the ancestors of the Sarvastivadins, we have SĀ 549, wherein Venerable Mahākātyāyana gives advice to a certain woman named *Kāḷīkopāsikā (迦梨迦優婆夷):
"Dear Sister, there are those śramaṇas and Brahmins who say that the samāpatti of the totality of the earth is the highest. My sister, would you suppose that those śramaṇas and Brahmins are liberated in relation to the samāpatti of the totality of the earth by seeing the earth's origin, by seeing the drawbacks of it, by seeing the cessation of it, and by seeing the path to that cessation? Because of seeing the origin of it, because of seeing the drawbacks of it, because of seeing the cessation of it, and because of seeing the path to the cessation of it, one attains knowledge of the real via the mind. One is tranquil and free from confusion."
"Kasina" = "totality" here. This excerpt agrees with both MN 77 and SĀ 109. There is a right way and a wrong way to do these meditations.
Good luck with your 'path'.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Coëmgenu »

PeterC86 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:46 amNo, it explains exactly what you do; identification with the kasinas happens.
No. The correct way to do kasina meditation is to not identify with the kasinas, as expounded by the Buddha and Venerable Mahākātyāyana in the above citations. You are wrong.
At one time, Thomas the Bodhi-Wizard was teaching in the rosewood pavillion in the park by the Kmart. Summarizing, he concluded: "The gist is to be unconscious of conceptualizations." "What about the concept of 'concepts versus non-concepts?'" asked Frampton the Initiate. "Ooooh you think you're so clever," responded Thomas, "but when I was porking your mother last night, she achieved a non-dual gnostic bliss that transgresses the binaries of even your foolish question. Do not question the Bodhi-Wizard."

The students rejoiced.
PeterC86
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by PeterC86 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:53 pm
PeterC86 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:46 amNo, it explains exactly what you do; identification with the kasinas happens.
No. The correct way to do kasina meditation is to not identify with the kasinas, as expounded by the Buddha and Venerable Mahākātyāyana in the above citations. You are wrong.
Still you keep talking about them. https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN11_10.html

Right comprehension would be; there are no kasinas.
Last edited by PeterC86 on Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Ceisiwr »

PeterC86 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:57 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:53 pm
PeterC86 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:46 amNo, it explains exactly what you do; identification with the kasinas happens.
No. The correct way to do kasina meditation is to not identify with the kasinas, as expounded by the Buddha and Venerable Mahākātyāyana in the above citations. You are wrong.
Still you keep talking about them. https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN11_10.html
Skipping the beginning and middle and trying to meditate like an Arahant or Buddha doesn’t seem particularly wise to me. If you can’t even get the learning sign, let alone the counterpart sign, how on earth can you meditate like in that sutta? Said person wouldn’t have the necessary mastery of mind.
“Mendicants, I do not see a single thing that, when it’s not tamed, is so very harmful as the mind. A wild mind is very harmful.”

Adantavagga
PeterC86
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by PeterC86 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:01 pm
PeterC86 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:57 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:53 pm No. The correct way to do kasina meditation is to not identify with the kasinas, as expounded by the Buddha and Venerable Mahākātyāyana in the above citations. You are wrong.
Still you keep talking about them. https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN11_10.html
Skipping the beginning and middle and trying to meditate like an Arahant or Buddha doesn’t seem particularly wise to me. If you can’t even get the learning sign, let alone the counterpart sign, how on earth can you meditate like in that sutta? Said person wouldn’t have the necessary mastery of mind.
viewtopic.php?p=681620#p681620
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Ceisiwr »

PeterC86 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:08 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:01 pm
PeterC86 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:57 pm

Still you keep talking about them. https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN11_10.html
Skipping the beginning and middle and trying to meditate like an Arahant or Buddha doesn’t seem particularly wise to me. If you can’t even get the learning sign, let alone the counterpart sign, how on earth can you meditate like in that sutta? Said person wouldn’t have the necessary mastery of mind.
viewtopic.php?p=681620#p681620
That’s a non-answer, which is typical.
“Mendicants, I do not see a single thing that, when it’s not tamed, is so very harmful as the mind. A wild mind is very harmful.”

Adantavagga
PeterC86
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by PeterC86 »

asahi wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:12 pm
PeterC86 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:46 am
https://suttacentral.net/sa109/en/analayo

“How does he see the self as being in consciousness? That is, [he sees] bodily form as the self which dwells among consciousness, being surrounded by the [other aggregates] as its four limbs. [He sees] feeling … perception … formations as the self which dwells among consciousness, being surrounded by the [other aggregates] as its four limbs. This is called [seeing] the self as being in consciousness.

“In this way a noble disciple who has seen the four truths gains the fruit of right comprehension and abandons all wrong views, which will never arise again in the future.

Whatever bodily form, whether past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, sublime or repugnant, far or near, he contemplates it taken together completely in this way:
“‘All of it is impermanent, all of it is dukkha, all of it is empty, all of it is not self, it should not be craved with delight, grasped or kept up. Feeling … perception … formations … consciousness is also like this, it should not be craved with delight, grasped or kept up
.’
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Coëmgenu »

PeterC86 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:57 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:53 pm
PeterC86 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:46 amNo, it explains exactly what you do; identification with the kasinas happens.
No. The correct way to do kasina meditation is to not identify with the kasinas, as expounded by the Buddha and Venerable Mahākātyāyana in the above citations. You are wrong.
Still you keep talking about them. https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN11_10.html

Right comprehension would be; there are no kasinas.
I'm sorry, but your words here are irrelevant. The sutta you cite does not support what you are saying, which means that you don't understand it yet. You were wrong, are still wrong, and eventually, one day, you might understand that.
At one time, Thomas the Bodhi-Wizard was teaching in the rosewood pavillion in the park by the Kmart. Summarizing, he concluded: "The gist is to be unconscious of conceptualizations." "What about the concept of 'concepts versus non-concepts?'" asked Frampton the Initiate. "Ooooh you think you're so clever," responded Thomas, "but when I was porking your mother last night, she achieved a non-dual gnostic bliss that transgresses the binaries of even your foolish question. Do not question the Bodhi-Wizard."

The students rejoiced.
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