Is it appropriate for monks to donate alms-food to lay people?

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SarathW
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Is it appropriate for monks to donate alms-food to lay people?

Post by SarathW »

Is it appropriate for monks to donate alms-food to lay people?
The following video is in Sinhalese.
Monks are donating their alms-food to the people in petrol ques.

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mikenz66
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Re: Is it appropriate for monks to donate alms-food to lay people?

Post by mikenz66 »

It's normal for monks to give away alms food that they don't need, since they cannot store it. In practice this often means giving it back to the lay people who brought the food to them in the first place. For example, at our local monastery lay people bring food for the monks for breakfast and lunch, and when the monks are finished they have their breakfast or lunch from what is left over. It's in a semi-rural area, so alms round is not practical.

In this case they are giving away the excess food (which you can see is being carried by their helpers, as they have received more than they need) before they finish the alms round. That's wonderful. People who want to give to them get to give to them. People who need some food get it from them. :anjali:

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Last edited by mikenz66 on Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
SarathW
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Re: Is it appropriate for monks to donate alms-food to lay people?

Post by SarathW »

I agree Mike.
In our temple, we take the excess food and the monks insist we take them back as they can't store food.
Sometimes people share the food they brought to the temple.
The question here is whether monks collect food to distribute to the poor or needy.
I think monks should encourage lay people to do it.
Perhaps monks can take the lead.
Last edited by SarathW on Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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mikenz66
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Re: Is it appropriate for monks to donate alms-food to lay people?

Post by mikenz66 »

SarathW wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:59 am I agree Mike.
In our temple, we take the excess food and the monks insist we take them back as they can't store food.
Sometimes people share the food they brought to the temple.
The question here is whether monks collect food to distribute to the poor or needy.
I think monks should encourage lay people to do it.
So why do you need to ask the question? It's just normal... :tongue:
SarathW
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Re: Is it appropriate for monks to donate alms-food to lay people?

Post by SarathW »

No the problem here is that the monks collect food to distribute to the poor.
Even giving the food offered to the monks could be problematic in my opinion.
Even for a lay person giving a presentation, you got to someone could be problematic.
The worst case is someone gave me a birthday present (a bottle of wine) which I was given to him for his birthday some years back.
:mrgreen:
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mikenz66
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Re: Is it appropriate for monks to donate alms-food to lay people?

Post by mikenz66 »

SarathW wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:05 am No the problem here is that the monks collect food to distribute to the poor.
Even giving the food offered to the monks could be problematic in my opinion.
Even for a lay person giving a presentation, you got to someone could be problematic.
The worst case is someone gave me a birthday present (a bottle of wine) which I was given to him for his birthday some years back.
:mrgreen:
It's donated to the monks first of all. At leaset, that's what I saw. I've been on alms round with one of my teachers in Bankok to carry the extra food. In that case it was distributed to the other monks and lay people staying or helping at the monastery, but I don't see any difference in principle, and they may well have distributed some to people in need.

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SarathW
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Re: Is it appropriate for monks to donate alms-food to lay people?

Post by SarathW »

What I am saying is why do I have to give some extra food to a monk so he can give that to a needy?
Why I can't do that myself?
The way I understand is that the monks are not supposed to do errands.
I have no problem with a monk who give some excess food to a visitor or needy.
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Re: Is it appropriate for monks to donate alms-food to lay people?

Post by Alino »

Vinaya forbid monk to give food only to "naked ascetics". Commentary explain it as "not giving food to monks of other religions" because lay disciples could interpret it as if bhikkhus worship monks others sects...

If i dont mistake...
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Re: Is it appropriate for monks to donate alms-food to lay people?

Post by Johann »

SarathW wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:45 am Is it appropriate for monks to donate alms-food to lay people?
The following video is in Sinhalese.
Monks are donating their alms-food to the people in petrol ques.

No, good householder. It's a trangression in most cases, if like, often as well by popular western monks done, actually a means of gaining popularity even a heavy transgression.

Monks may help out those working in the monastery, servants, and support their parents, in all distance cases letting others (then Bhikkhus) hand it over. Even if not personal handed out, there is still easy suspection of Sg13.

Aside of wrong livelihood in the strong version, real devoted wouldn't be happy to see their alms feeding Samsara, even returns to enemies, at least peopke without virtue.

Those video shows horrible scenes, destroying path for those receiving and faith for those who had given with faith. A clear Sg 13 or grave wrong view. Like Sujato and his social activists...
Donation-advertising:

What happens if there’s too much?

We share any extra food with our local community center. Harris Park has many low-income earners, so there are, sadly, always people who don’t have enough to eat.

https://lokanta.github.io/
What one feeds that grows, inwardly outwardly. "Poor" get their Lords.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Is it appropriate for monks to donate alms-food to lay people?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

SarathW wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:05 am The worst case is someone gave me a birthday present (a bottle of wine) which I was given to him for his birthday some years back.
:mrgreen:
For goodness sake, stop whining!
  1. Giving a gift of alcohol is unwholesome kamma (adhammadāna).
  2. Whining about being given back your own unwanted gift is unwholesome kamma.
  3. Giving almsfood to a monk out of respect for the Saṅgha is wholesome kamma.
  4. Giving almsfood to a poor person is wholesome kamma, but less meritorious than giving that same food to the Saṅgha.
  5. The monks are not running errands unless you ask them to donate the almsfood to the poor people on your behalf because you are too busy, etc.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Is it appropriate for monks to donate alms-food to lay people?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

SamanaJohann_ wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2022 10:05 amThose video shows horrible scenes, destroying path for those receiving and faith for those who had given with faith. A clear Sg 13 or grave wrong view. Like Sujato and his social activists...
Giving left-over almsfood, out of compassion, is not even the wrong livelihood of pursuing gain with gain.

The Saṅghādisesa rule 13 is about corrupting families. If a monk is a corrupter of families, practising astrology, prescribing medicine, giving presents of food, flowers, etc., repeatedly to the point where his bad behaviour is seen and talked about, then he should be brought into the presence of the Saṅgha and banished from that area.

If he does not desist, and criticises the act of banishment, then his behaviour comes under Saṅghadisesa 13.

Summary: To persist — after the third announcement of a formal rebuke in the Community — in criticising an act of banishment performed against oneself is a Saṅghādisesa offence.

Minor offences of wrong-doing (dukkhaṭa) or requiring confession (pācittiya) should not be conflated with the more serious offence of defying the Saṅghakamma imposed for those minor offences.

Pācittiya 41 refers to giving food, with one's own hand to adherents of other religions. I do not think it applies to giving food, with one's own hand, to lay people.
Buddhist Monastic Code wrote:Should any bhikkhu give staple or non‑staple food with his own hand to a naked ascetic, a male wanderer, or a female wanderer, it is to be confessed.
Last edited by Bhikkhu Pesala on Fri Jul 08, 2022 10:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is it appropriate for monks to donate alms-food to lay people?

Post by Johann »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2022 10:45 am
SamanaJohann_ wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2022 10:05 amThose video shows horrible scenes, destroying path for those receiving and faith for those who had given with faith. A clear Sg 13 or grave wrong view. Like Sujato and his social activists...
Giving left-over almsfood, out of compassion, is not even the wrong livelihood of pursuing gain with gain.

The Saṅghādisesa rule 13 is about corrupting families. If a monk is a corrupter of families, practising astrology, prescribing medicine, giving presents of food, flowers, etc., repeatedly to the point where his bad behaviour is seen and talked about, then he should be brought into the presence of the Saṅgha and banished from that area.

If he does not desist, and criticises the act of banishment, then his behaviour comes under Saṅghadisesa 13.

Summary: To persist — after the third announcement of a formal rebuke in the Community — in criticising an act of banishment performed against oneself is a Saṅghādisesa offence.

Minor offences of wrong-doing (dukkhaṭa) or requiring confession (pācittiya) should not be conflated with the more serious offence of defying the Saṅghakamma imposed for those minor offences.
Sadhu for further details by seeing the dangers, Bhante. So one would acting in such way, because simply compassionate: declare on ones advertising page right under "you can give alms to us..." (suggesting and promoting alms toward one)

Sure, they wouldn't bend their ways, Bhante. Even Dhamma they sell off like-a-like.

And to let the first sentence not become an unholesome opening: Even if giving out of compassion: when a Bhikkhu gives that in faith (toward the Gems) given outside, is such approved? Since many would say: "But our monks are generous first..."

And further, what if a monk would give out what has been given to the Sangha, say worthy an expansive meal, more worth than a hand of rice in times of war?
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Re: Is it appropriate for monks to donate alms-food to lay people?

Post by Johann »

Maybe useful in addition from the generous shared BMC:
To prevent a bhikkhu from pursuing gain with gain — and from displeasing his donors — there is a rule that a bhikkhu living off the gifts of the faithful should not take those gifts and give them to lay people. To do so is called bringing a gift of faith (saddhā-deyya) to waste. The one exception is that one may always give those gifts to one’s mother or father. The Commentary notes that this allowance holds even if one’s parents are royalty. However, it does not extend to other relatives.

None of the texts define which gains do and do not constitute gifts of faith, but the term itself suggests that it would not apply to gains accruing to a bhikkhu for reasons other than the faith of the donor, such as an inheritance from his parents or funds derived from work done before his ordination.

Gifts of almsfood, however, are obviously gifts of faith, which raises the question: What is to be done with leftovers? Mv.III.7.8 mentions a person called a bhikkhu-bhatika (vl.: bhikkhu-gatika), which the Commentary defines as a man living in the same dwelling with bhikkhus. There may have been a custom for bhikkhus to give their leftovers to such people, but the Canon does not explicitly address the issue. The Vinaya-mukha does, saying that a bhikkhu may take any gains beyond his own needs and give them as compensation to lay people who do work in the monastery. (The Commentary to Cv.X.15.1 says that a bhikkhu may take the best part of what is given to him and then give the remainder to others. Also, if the gift is not congenial to him, he may relinquish it to others. He may also use a robe or alms bowl for a day or two and then give it away.) If a bhikkhu gains an excess of items of a more permanent nature, he may give them to his fellow bhikkhus or to the Community. If the Community has an excess, it may have the items exchanged for something more needed (see Chapter 7). Or, as the origin story to Pc 41 shows, it may arrange to have them distributed to “those who eat scraps (vighāsāda),” which, as that story also shows, may include wanderers of other sects.
Cv makes the issue obiviously clear how urged the protection of what is given in faith and with even clear objection is:
Now at that time people gave food to the bhikkhus, and the bhikkhus gave it to the bhikkhunīs. The people were offended and annoyed and spread it about, “How can the masters give to others what is given for the purpose of their own consumption? Don’t we know how to give a gift?” …. “One should not give to others what is given for the purpose of one’s own consumption. Whoever should do so: an offense of wrong doing.”

Now at that time the bhikkhus had an abundance of food .… “I allow that what belongs to the Community be given (§).” There was an even greater abundance. “I allow that what belongs to an individual be given.” Now at that time the bhikkhus had an abundance of stored up food. “I allow that it be consumed by the bhikkhunīs when the bhikkhus have arranged for them to formally accept it.” — Cv.X.15.1

Now at that time people gave food to the bhikkhunīs, and the bhikkhunīs gave it to the bhikkhus. The people were offended and annoyed and spread it about, “How can the ladies give to others what is given for the purpose of their own consumption? Don’t we know how to give a gift?” …. “One should not give to others what is given for the purpose of one’s own consumption. Whoever should do so: an offense of wrong doing.”

Now at that time the bhikkhunīs had an abundance of food …. “I allow that what belongs to the Community be given.” There was an even greater abundance. “I allow that what belongs to an individual be given.” Now at that time the bhikkhunīs had an abundance of stored up food. “I allow that it be consumed by the bhikkhus when the bhikkhunīs have arranged for them to formally accept it.” — Cv.X.15.2
If monks run around, even asking for feeding lay people, solcial work outside the Sangha or fellows (one could now say, it has been given to contibute further), Vinaya does not allow to ask alms for lay people (with some exceptions), as well.
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Re: Is it appropriate for monks to donate alms-food to lay people?

Post by Johann »

Maybe worthy, sure worthy!, to point out that this "helping where there is no real benefit" is such a danger and needs to be clearly known, that the secound story of the first Pitaka, the foundation of the Sasanas going on, the second talk to new-comer, deal exactly with this issue, even if just out of compassion (yet an unwise one), where the Ven. Moggallāna had the idea to help the people and the Sangha, in times of famine, by doing a miracle. The Sublime Buddha didn't want him to do such, as there wouldn't be any benefit in it, toward liberation. This also mark clear that this Sasana isn't a worldly social institution but designed for what lies beyond gains in the world, what lies beyond suffering, aging, sickness and death, breaking appart.

It's the act of a fool to sacrifice higher for low, peace for war, independency for snares, and to promote, approve and encourage such: wasting sacrifices of Saddha, destroys basics.
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Re: Is it appropriate for monks to donate alms-food to lay people?

Post by Johann »

And effects, when social activists and punks use robes for their agenda, walk (steal) to feed the poor, is well seen if one looks at states where fools draw "heroic" samples. "Experiance Sujato in Sri Lanka..."
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