KN Iti 82 are these errors in Sujato's translation?

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frank k
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KN Iti 82 are these errors in Sujato's translation?

Post by frank k »

https://suttacentral.net/iti82/en/sujat ... ript=latin

1. first problem, 'mārena' as 'with māra'
‘This noble disciple intends to join battle with Māra!’
‘eso ariyasāvako mārena saddhiṁ saṅgāmāya cetetī’ti.

mārena (with māra) in the declension table seems like an instrumental.

I think everything may be grammatically correct, but the English translation reads really ambiguously.
It sounds like the monk is taking a heel turn and joining the bad guys going to battle WITH Māra instead of AGAINST him.
Especially with how Sujato translates the next line.
‘This noble disciple intends to join battle with Māra!’
‘eso ariyasāvako mārena saddhiṁ saṅgāmāya cetetī’ti.
This is the first occasion a cry is uttered among the gods.
Ayaṁ, bhikkhave, paṭhamo devesu devasaddo niccharati samayā samayaṁ upādāya.
It reads like the Gods are weeping because the monk is joining Māra.


2. Second problem, why do so many translators render 'ariya savaka' as 'noble disciple' (i.e. A stream enterer disciple)?
So someone is an unenlightened householder, decides to ordain and become a monk, they're immediately an enlightened stream entering noble disciple?
That makes no sense.

3. My translation, inspired by parts of Thanissaro's and Sujato's.
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... -gods.html
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frank k
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Re: KN Iti 82 are these errors in Sujato's translation?

Post by frank k »

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... sekha.html

notes on sekha and ariya savaka

there's evidence to support a sekha must be at least a stream enterer.

I see no evidence that 'ariya savaka' must be at least a stream enterer 'noble disciple', I've only seen evidence like Iti 82 showing the contrary, that ariya savaka is clearly not a stream enterer.
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Re: KN Iti 82 are these errors in Sujato's translation?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Frank, Here are the translations: https://suttacentral.net/iti82
Ireland wrote:“At the time when a noble disciple, having had his hair and beard shaved off and having clothed himself in the yellow robe, intends going forth from home into homelessness, at that time among the devas the joyous utterance is proclaimed: ‘A noble disciple intends to do battle with Māra.’ This is the first joyous utterance proclaimed among the devas from time to time upon a certain occasion.
Sujato wrote: When a noble disciple shaves off their hair and beard, dresses in ocher robes, and goes forth from the lay life to homelessness, the gods cry out:
Yasmiṁ, bhikkhave, samaye ariyasāvako kesamassuṁ ohāretvā kāsāyāni vatthāni acchādetvā agārasmā anagāriyaṁ pabbajjāya ceteti, tasmiṁ samaye devesu devasaddo niccharati: Variant: pabbajjāya ceteti, tasmiṁ samaye → tasmiṁ bhikkhave samaye (pts-vp-pli1, mr)
‘This noble disciple intends to join battle with Māra!’
‘eso ariyasāvako mārena saddhiṁ saṅgāmāya cetetī’ti.
This is the first occasion a cry is uttered among the gods.
Ayaṁ, bhikkhave, paṭhamo devesu devasaddo niccharati samayā samayaṁ upādāya.
They are basically the same. They are crying out in the same sense as in SN56.1 https://suttacentral.net/sn56.11/en/suj ... ript=latin, though I think the Pali words are slightly different.
And when the Buddha rolled forth the Wheel of Dhamma, the earth gods raised the cry:
Pavattite ca pana bhagavatā dhammacakke bhummā devā saddamanussāvesuṁ:
...
In English, a "cry out" or "raised the cry" can be happy or sad, depending on context. English does have some strange idioms.

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Re: KN Iti 82 are these errors in Sujato's translation?

Post by frank k »

mikenz66 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:18 pm ...
In English, a "cry out" or "raised the cry" can be happy or sad, depending on context. English does have some strange idioms.

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Mike
Thanks, I'm American and also familiar with 'cry' used on occasion.

The dictionary says: for cry, verb
shout or scream, typically to express fear, pain, or grief.
"the center forward cried in pain as he went down under the challenge"
as a noun,
a loud inarticulate shout or scream expressing a powerful feeling or emotion.
"a cry of despair"

The ambiguity (whether that strong emotion is grief, fear, excitement) of cry isn't the biggest problem though. It's the "joining battle with māra".
Are you joining māra's side? Or joining to fight against māra?
Maybe the context makes those ambiguities clear, but I don't think it's great to translate with that many ambiguities bundled together.
ANd another ambiguity, a new Buddhist has no idea who māra is.
1. are gods crying in grief or fear or excitement (positive)?
2. are you joining or against māra?
3. is māra a good guy or a bad guy?
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Re: KN Iti 82 are these errors in Sujato's translation?

Post by mikenz66 »

frank k wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:28 am Thanks, I'm American and also familiar with 'cry' used on occasion.
Well, I speak NZ English, which is different, but in some ways similar to Austrian English. Perhaps, hence your puzzlement over Bhikkhu Sujato's translations... :tongue:

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mikenz66
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Re: KN Iti 82 are these errors in Sujato's translation?

Post by mikenz66 »

frank k wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:28 am The ambiguity (whether that strong emotion is grief, fear, excitement) of cry isn't the biggest problem though. It's the "joining battle with māra".
Are you joining māra's side? Or joining to fight against māra?
Maybe the context makes those ambiguities clear, but I don't think it's great to translate with that many ambiguities bundled together.
ANd another ambiguity, a new Buddhist has no idea who māra is.
1. are gods crying in grief or fear or excitement (positive)?
2. are you joining or against māra?
3. is māra a good guy or a bad guy?
‘This noble disciple intends to join battle with Māra!’
It means he's going to fight Mara. Maybe a slightly archaic idiom:
https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/jo ... %20contest.

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Re: KN Iti 82 are these errors in Sujato's translation?

Post by NotMe »

mikenz66 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:57 pm Well, I speak NZ English, which is different, but in some ways similar to Austrian English. Perhaps, hence your puzzlement over Bhikkhu Sujato's translations... :tongue:
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Mike
These kinda problems only exist because of the Tower of Babel, don't you know? And we know who to thank for *that* clustergobble.

Okie blended w/back east vernacular is my second language. My first like all of us was gibberish. the internet makes communication tedious at best.

Metta

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