Yeast and the first precept

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
tom32
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Yeast and the first precept

Post by tom32 »

Hello, most people would consider yeast vegan and would consider worrying about microorganisms to be a bit extreme. However, here's the first precept:
"I undertake the training-precept to abstain from onslaught on breathing beings." (Pali: Pāṇātipātā veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi.)
Yeast clearly breathes, this is why it's added to bread, so that its breath causes the bread to rise.

The only question then is are they 'beings', I don't know what the definition of 'being' is in Buddhism, could anyone help with this? Otherwise I'm considering that perhaps the killing of yeast through the process of bread-making is breaking the first precept.
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Re: Yeast and the first precept

Post by DNS »

tom32 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:26 pm Hello, most people would consider yeast vegan and would consider worrying about microorganisms to be a bit extreme. However, here's the first precept:
"I undertake the training-precept to abstain from onslaught on breathing beings." (Pali: Pāṇātipātā veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi.)
Yeast clearly breathes, this is why it's added to bread, so that its breath causes the bread to rise.

The only question then is are they 'beings', I don't know what the definition of 'being' is in Buddhism, could anyone help with this? Otherwise I'm considering that perhaps the killing of yeast through the process of bread-making is breaking the first precept.
In buddhism, it has to be a living, breathing sentient being (I don't have a reference off the top of my head right now). The buddhist cosmology (31 planes of existence) does not include plants, fungi, bacteria, etc. The planes of existence includes some woeful states, deva realms, humans and animals. So since yeast is not an animal (not a member of Animal Kingdom), it is okay to kill and eat, according to buddhism.

Jainism considers these other life forms as beings that even undergo rebirth (samsara), but they have to eat, so they are vegetarian, but try to avoid foods heavy in bacteria, fungi, etc. (root vegetables, fermented foods)
tom32
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Re: Yeast and the first precept

Post by tom32 »

DNS wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:43 pm In buddhism, it has to be a living, breathing sentient being (I don't have a reference off the top of my head right now). The buddhist cosmology (31 planes of existence) does not include plants, fungi, bacteria, etc. The planes of existence includes some woeful states, deva realms, humans and animals. So since yeast is not an animal (not a member of Animal Kingdom), it is okay to kill and eat, according to buddhism.
Is it possible that they're in one of the planes of existence without being mentioned? For example, perhaps the yeast are in the woeful states?
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Re: Yeast and the first precept

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tom32 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:04 pm Is it possible that they're in one of the planes of existence without being mentioned? For example, perhaps the yeast are in the woeful states?
The Buddha gave us a handful of leaves from the mighty forest of his awakening. May just be one of the other leaves. He only brought to us the handful we need to awaken.

Metta

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Re: Yeast and the first precept

Post by Alino »

Vinaya say that in order to create full killing kamma there need to be 5 factors:

1. One sees a living being
2. One perceiving the living being as a living being
3. One's motivation is to kill this living being
4. One makes an effort it that direction
5. Living being is dead

If on of these factors is absent, there is no killing kamma.
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
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Re: Yeast and the first precept

Post by tom32 »

I suppose I'm struggling to determine if Yeast cells should be considered 'living beings' or 'sentient beings'.

This Wikipedia article on sentient beings says:
In Buddhism, sentient beings are beings with consciousness, sentience, or in some contexts life itself. Sentient beings are composed of the five aggregates, or skandhas: matter, sensation, perception, mental formations and consciousness.
So yeast have matter, but do they have sensation, perception, mental formations, and consciousness? To be honest, I'm not sure if I could answer that question for a cow, let alone a single-celled organism, but nonetheless the question occurs to me often.

Edit: it would seem they can sense glucose.
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Re: Yeast and the first precept

Post by NotMe »

Alino wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:49 pm Vinaya say that in order to create full killing kamma there need to be 5 factors:

1. One sees a living being
2. One perceiving the living being as a living being
3. One's motivation is to kill this living being
4. One makes an effort it that direction
5. Living being is dead

If on of these factors is absent, there is no killing kamma.
Awesome post. And I wonder - do these yeast things continue to live inside our gut?

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Re: Yeast and the first precept

Post by tom32 »

NotMe wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:11 pm And I wonder - do these yeast things continue to live inside our gut?
Well, they get killed inside the oven before that
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Re: Yeast and the first precept

Post by NotMe »

tom32 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:16 pm
NotMe wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:11 pm And I wonder - do these yeast things continue to live inside our gut?
Well, they get killed inside the oven before that
So the oven does the killing? <grin> May be not the best reasoning there, I admit. But hey, you intend to cook something alive - not kill it?
no no no, Lee. Wrong Way.

I tried.

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Re: Yeast and the first precept

Post by DNS »

tom32 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:04 pm
DNS wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:43 pm In buddhism, it has to be a living, breathing sentient being (I don't have a reference off the top of my head right now). The buddhist cosmology (31 planes of existence) does not include plants, fungi, bacteria, etc. The planes of existence includes some woeful states, deva realms, humans and animals. So since yeast is not an animal (not a member of Animal Kingdom), it is okay to kill and eat, according to buddhism.
Is it possible that they're in one of the planes of existence without being mentioned? For example, perhaps the yeast are in the woeful states?
No, they are not in any of the 31 planes of existence of buddhist cosmology.
https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?ti ... _existence

There is also a Sutta or maybe in the Vinaya, where the Buddha says that if one kills a being so small, that you don't see it, so don't notice it, there is no transgression. For example, a live gnat on a muffin that you ate and later someone tells you that there was a live gnat on it (without you knowing), then no violation of the precept (there was no intention to kill).
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Re: Yeast and the first precept

Post by thepea »

DNS wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:43 pm
tom32 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:26 pm Hello, most people would consider yeast vegan and would consider worrying about microorganisms to be a bit extreme. However, here's the first precept:
"I undertake the training-precept to abstain from onslaught on breathing beings." (Pali: Pāṇātipātā veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi.)
Yeast clearly breathes, this is why it's added to bread, so that its breath causes the bread to rise.

The only question then is are they 'beings', I don't know what the definition of 'being' is in Buddhism, could anyone help with this? Otherwise I'm considering that perhaps the killing of yeast through the process of bread-making is breaking the first precept.
In buddhism, it has to be a living, breathing sentient being (I don't have a reference off the top of my head right now). The buddhist cosmology (31 planes of existence) does not include plants, fungi, bacteria, etc. The planes of existence includes some woeful states, deva realms, humans and animals. So since yeast is not an animal (not a member of Animal Kingdom), it is okay to kill and eat, according to buddhism.

Jainism considers these other life forms as beings that even undergo rebirth (samsara), but they have to eat, so they are vegetarian, but try to avoid foods heavy in bacteria, fungi, etc. (root vegetables, fermented foods)
Then why can’t a monk pick a flower?
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Re: Yeast and the first precept

Post by DNS »

thepea wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 3:10 am Then why can’t a monk pick a flower?
According to buddhism, plants are not samsaric beings that undergo rebirth, but they are still life forms; one-facultied, not complex like a monkey, tiger, or human. Perhaps due to being life forms, although rudimentary, that is was advised not to do unnecessary killing or harm to plants.
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Re: Yeast and the first precept

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DNS wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 3:30 am
thepea wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 3:10 am Then why can’t a monk pick a flower?
According to buddhism, plants are not samsaric beings that undergo rebirth, but they are still life forms; one-facultied, not complex like a monkey, tiger, or human. Perhaps due to being life forms, although rudimentary, that is was advised not to do unnecessary killing or harm to plants.
I think this is your own personal interpretation.
It’s simply a matter of destruction.
A monastic can kill many plants while travelling from one village to the next hiking through jungle.
All life is essentially similar that it breathes. The difference in buddhas teachings among the treatment of varying life formations is regarding developing jhana, it’s the attachment and stirring of the mind that one wants to observe and limit. Stepping on and killing plants is no different than killing a fish or human in the macro outlook, but on the micro outlook these more complex life formations cling to our minds more and killing these invokes much planning and thought. This is not good for single pointed concentration. Similarly a monk stepping on a flower unknowingly while hiking on alms is much different than intentionally picking the flower. It’s a much more complex action.
This is why monastics vinyana is different from layman. Changing a car tire is also not good for jhana development,or grocery shopping.
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Re: Yeast and the first precept

Post by JamesTheGiant »

thepea wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 3:10 am
Then why can’t a monk pick a flower?
The rule against monks picking flowers or even cutting a leaf, was put in place because some people from another religion in ancient India complained to the Buddha that his monks were cutting plants, which was against their different religion.
So out of respect for the different religion the Buddha said his monks should never cut or kill plants.

This rule does not apply to regular lay people and is only for monks.
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Re: Yeast and the first precept

Post by thepea »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 7:37 am
thepea wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 3:10 am
Then why can’t a monk pick a flower?
The rule against monks picking flowers or even cutting a leaf, was put in place because some people from another religion in ancient India complained to the Buddha that his monks were cutting plants, which was against their different religion.
So out of respect for the different religion the Buddha said his monks should never cut or kill plants.

This rule does not apply to regular lay people and is only for monks.
That sounds made up to support belief structures added to the dhamma to control the masses.
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