Forgetfulness in Buddhism

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Bundokji
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Forgetfulness in Buddhism

Post by Bundokji »

Friends,

I am wondering if there is a place for the concept of forgetfulness in the teachings of the Buddha. I am uncertain if there is a pali word that translates precisely into memory, but the one i know to be the closest is Sati, which usually translates into mindfulness.

Is there any mentioning of forgetfulness in the suttas? It is an aspect/manifestation of anicca, is it not? it also correlates with old age.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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robertk
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Re: Forgetfulness in Buddhism

Post by robertk »

saññā is the word for the element that marks an object.
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frank k
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Re: Forgetfulness in Buddhism

Post by frank k »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:18 am Friends,

I am wondering if there is a place for the concept of forgetfulness in the teachings of the Buddha. I am uncertain if there is a pali word that translates precisely into memory, but the one i know to be the closest is Sati, which usually translates into mindfulness.

Is there any mentioning of forgetfulness in the suttas? It is an aspect/manifestation of anicca, is it not? it also correlates with old age.

probably not the context you're looking for, but this is one word used to express the opposite of sati, you can track down all occurences.
unmindful [of the Dharma], muṭṭha-s-satino

19 hits in DPR
https://www.digitalpalireader.online/_d ... 1&rx=false

or wider net catching more conjugations, muṭṭhassat:
https://www.digitalpalireader.online/_d ... 1&rx=false

KN Ud 4.2 Uddhata: Restless

Udāna 4.2
Heartfelt Sayings 4.2
Uddhatasutta
Restless
Evaṁ me sutaṁ— ekaṁ samayaṁ bhagavā kusinārāyaṁ viharati upavattane mallānaṁ sālavane. Tena kho pana samayena sambahulā bhikkhū bhagavato avidūre araññakuṭikāyaṁ viharanti uddhatā unnaḷā capalā mukharā vikiṇṇavācā muṭṭhassatino asampajānā asamāhitā vibbhantacittā pākatindriyā.
So I have heard. At one time the Buddha was staying in the sal forest of the Mallas at Upavattana near Kusinārā. Now at that time several monks were staying not far from the Buddha in a wilderness hut. They were restless, insolent, fickle, scurrilous, loose-tongued, unmindful [of the Dharma], lacking lucid-discerning and undistractible-lucidity, with straying minds and undisciplined faculties.
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SDC
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Re: Forgetfulness in Buddhism

Post by SDC »

Sati
anussati
SN 48.10 wrote:Katamañca, bhikkhave, satindriyaṁ? Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako satimā hoti paramena satinepakkena samannāgato, cirakatampi cirabhāsitampi saritā anussaritā.

"And what is the faculty of mindfulness? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago.
When you don’t have the faculty seems to imply one is forgetful.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
form
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Re: Forgetfulness in Buddhism

Post by form »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:18 am Friends,

I am wondering if there is a place for the concept of forgetfulness in the teachings of the Buddha. I am uncertain if there is a pali word that translates precisely into memory, but the one i know to be the closest is Sati, which usually translates into mindfulness.

Is there any mentioning of forgetfulness in the suttas? It is an aspect/manifestation of anicca, is it not? it also correlates with old age.
Sati is the word. Accept no substitute.

Non mindfulness, distracted, unfocus, dull mind, unwieldy.
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SDC
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Re: Forgetfulness in Buddhism

Post by SDC »

There’s also this from MN 10:
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu santaṁ vā ajjhattaṁ satisambojjhaṅgaṁ ‘atthi me ajjhattaṁ satisambojjhaṅgo’ti pajānāti, asantaṁ vā ajjhattaṁ satisambojjhaṅgaṁ ‘natthi me ajjhattaṁ satisambojjhaṅgo’ti pajānāti, yathā ca anuppannassa satisambojjhaṅgassa uppādo hoti tañca pajānāti, yathā ca uppannassa satisambojjhaṅgassa bhāvanāya pāripūrī hoti tañca pajānāti.

Here, there being the mindfulness enlightenment factor in him, bhikkhu understands: 'There is the mindfulness enlightenment factor in me'; or there being no mindfulness enlightenment factor in him, he understands: 'There is no mindfulness enlightenment factor in me'; and he also understands how there comes to be the arising of the unarisen mindfulness enlightenment factor, and how the arisen mindfulness enlightenment factor comes to fulfilment by development.
Though what is interesting about this line is that there is essentially remembrance about a lack of remembrance, which, for those with less experience with recollection/mindfulness, who don’t have a sufficient reference point, this simple acknowledgment can serve as the basis for setting it up. It can always be something they are sure of when they recollect it, which is the principle of mindfulness. For those with experience, it is what will always bring the mind back together. Just another way to look at the nature of forgetting.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
Jack19990101
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Re: Forgetfulness in Buddhism

Post by Jack19990101 »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:18 am Friends,

I am wondering if there is a place for the concept of forgetfulness in the teachings of the Buddha. I am uncertain if there is a pali word that translates precisely into memory, but the one i know to be the closest is Sati, which usually translates into mindfulness.

Is there any mentioning of forgetfulness in the suttas? It is an aspect/manifestation of anicca, is it not? it also correlates with old age.
There are multiple types of Memory - a label of object (names, math) direct discernment of attributes (short, long), is sanna.
Those are useful tools.

another type is memory with plots, stories, usually identity involved. I did sth, I feel sth. so on. Those are sankhara.


'Don't forget' in context of Sati training, it means 'be conscious of'. Sati of breathing, be conscious of breathing at this moment, its long or short, so on.

Not sure about the context of old aging - But I have a feeling that forgetfulness in this context, is not necessarily a thing of trouble. It might mean identify withdraw process from this specific body.
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NotMe
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Re: Forgetfulness in Buddhism

Post by NotMe »

Jack19990101 wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:05 pm Not sure about the context of old aging - But I have a feeling that forgetfulness in this context, is not necessarily a thing of trouble. It might mean identify withdraw process from this specific body.
Only a big trouble when it involves what the wife wants. <grin> I can handle her though, after almost 50 years, I'd hope so.

Thank you!

Metta

:anjali:

edit: why am I here? oh yeah, hit submit dummy.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Forgetfulness in Buddhism

Post by Sam Vara »

SDC wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 2:43 pm There’s also this from MN 10:
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu santaṁ vā ajjhattaṁ satisambojjhaṅgaṁ ‘atthi me ajjhattaṁ satisambojjhaṅgo’ti pajānāti, asantaṁ vā ajjhattaṁ satisambojjhaṅgaṁ ‘natthi me ajjhattaṁ satisambojjhaṅgo’ti pajānāti, yathā ca anuppannassa satisambojjhaṅgassa uppādo hoti tañca pajānāti, yathā ca uppannassa satisambojjhaṅgassa bhāvanāya pāripūrī hoti tañca pajānāti.

Here, there being the mindfulness enlightenment factor in him, bhikkhu understands: 'There is the mindfulness enlightenment factor in me'; or there being no mindfulness enlightenment factor in him, he understands: 'There is no mindfulness enlightenment factor in me'; and he also understands how there comes to be the arising of the unarisen mindfulness enlightenment factor, and how the arisen mindfulness enlightenment factor comes to fulfilment by development.
Though what is interesting about this line is that there is essentially remembrance about a lack of remembrance, which, for those with less experience with recollection/mindfulness, who don’t have a sufficient reference point, this simple acknowledgment can serve as the basis for setting it up. It can always be something they are sure of when they recollect it, which is the principle of mindfulness. For those with experience, it is what will always bring the mind back together. Just another way to look at the nature of forgetting.
Great post! :anjali:

There's also SN 46.3, which presents the sattabojjhanga as a sequence. And the first one, sati, is aroused simply by the practitioner recalling that bit of the Dhamma which s/he has been taught. It's not even that s/he remembers the Dhamma, and then makes an extra effort to establish mindfulness as something they have been taught. I read it as the memory of the teaching being itself the mindfulness; which they then develop and bring to fulfilment. The next factor is investigation, so they recall and turn over in their mind what they have been taught. And then they exert energy, etc. But the whole thing is based on memory.
Bhikkhus, those bhikkhus who are accomplished in virtue, accomplished in concentration, accomplished in wisdom, accomplished in liberation, accomplished in the knowledge and vision of liberation: even the sight of those bhikkhus is helpful, I say; even listening to them … even approaching them … even attending on them … even recollecting them … even going forth after them is helpful, I say. For what reason? Because when one has heard the Dhamma from such bhikkhus one dwells withdrawn by way of two kinds of withdrawal—withdrawal of body and withdrawal of mind.

“Dwelling thus withdrawn, one recollects that Dhamma and thinks it over. Whenever, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu dwelling thus withdrawn recollects that Dhamma and thinks it over, on that occasion the enlightenment factor of mindfulness is aroused by the bhikkhu; on that occasion the bhikkhu develops the enlightenment factor of mindfulness; on that occasion the enlightenment factor of mindfulness comes to fulfilment by development in the bhikkhu.
https://suttacentral.net/sn46.3/en/bodh ... ight=false
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SDC
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Re: Forgetfulness in Buddhism

Post by SDC »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:31 pm
I read it as the memory of the teaching being itself the mindfulness; which they then develop and bring to fulfilment.

Bhikkhus, those bhikkhus who are accomplished in virtue, accomplished in concentration, accomplished in wisdom, accomplished in liberation, accomplished in the knowledge and vision of liberation: even the sight of those bhikkhus is helpful, I say; even listening to them … even approaching them … even attending on them … even recollecting them … even going forth after them is helpful, I say. For what reason? Because when one has heard the Dhamma from such bhikkhus one dwells withdrawn by way of two kinds of withdrawal—withdrawal of body and withdrawal of mind.

“Dwelling thus withdrawn, one recollects that Dhamma and thinks it over. Whenever, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu dwelling thus withdrawn recollects that Dhamma and thinks it over, on that occasion the enlightenment factor of mindfulness is aroused by the bhikkhu; on that occasion the bhikkhu develops the enlightenment factor of mindfulness; on that occasion the enlightenment factor of mindfulness comes to fulfilment by development in the bhikkhu.
https://suttacentral.net/sn46.3/en/bodh ... ight=false
I couldn’t agree more. Well said!
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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frank k
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Re: Forgetfulness in Buddhism

Post by frank k »

AN 6.29

Buddha calls udāyi a foolish man (mogha purisa) because he answered incorrectly when he asked him to list the 6 topics for recollections anus-sati-thāna

It's really built into the oral tradition that memory, recollection, thinking and investigating with vitakka and vicāra, are fundamental skills.

The modern way of learning really neglects those important basic skills. Even the most important dhamma are treated as disposable entertainment. in one ear, out the other, soon forgotten.

The Dhamma was meant to be memorized, recited frequently, thought about, many times a day, and applied.

AN 6.29 is one of the most important suttas, and I'd bet 999 out of 1000 buddhists couldn't tell me what it's about.


If the Buddha chastised udāyi for being foolish for not having memorized it, don't you think you guys should at least be able to have a short summary of the sutta memorized?

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bpallister
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Re: Forgetfulness in Buddhism

Post by bpallister »

the potential dangers of forgetfulness:

https://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Wri ... otions.pdf
sunnat
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Post by sunnat »

When there is thinking that there is an I that remembers through an act of will, there is I making.

When there is understanding that remembering is a sankhara that arises due to conditions there is opportunity for correct training that future arising of skilful memory depend upon.

The training is to give attention to instructions and to keep those instructions in mind, iow to be mindful. Continually returning to a truth of the present moment, such as the state of breath, results in repeated arising (re-collection) of the sankhara 'to be mindful of the state of the breath'. Also it is an opportunity to understand that sankharas are not I, not mine and not my self.

Forgetfulness is also a result of inappropriate attention to things like delusional thinking, even processes like 'I remember'. Like the baggage one accumulates throughout lifetimes of bad actions weighs one down, giving attention to unskillful processes clogs the mind and interferes with awareness of wholesome processes.
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Re: Forgetfulness in Buddhism

Post by wenjaforever »

What if forgetting something is actually beneficial to you? Like forgetting an ex. There's a chance a Brahma clouds your mind purposefully to guide you to the right destination. Or you're simply old and a victim of samsara and time.
money is worthless toilet paper • the tongue has no bone (a person might say one thing but it cannot be further from the truth) • you cannot teach a goat math as in you cannot teach the dhamma to a dumb person
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